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Crossing the Rubicon, with your hosts: Los and Keros


#21

To explore the deck more, is there possibly a place for Exploit here? Might be nice to reset a bunch of the board for future Rubicon shenanigans… Maybe too expensive to get into those three servers in one turn?


#22

Things I’ve learned from your post

  • Los hammering HQ early is a great way to set up siphons, especially if you can get a rez.

-Your strategy is to get into HQ early and land siphons, and leave RD and remote ice unrezzed until it’s Rubicon time? If so, sounds solid.

  • The state of face checking. Hasn’t really been the same since the end of Spin. Good, affordable ice. DNA Tracker and Fairchild 3 only make it less desirable.

  • Compromised Employee does suck, even in Andy where you can reliably have it work for much of the game. Thank you for the reality check. Kati, Aeneas, and Temujin should be enough econ.

  • Lastly, Rubicon is great end-game pressure (probably in any ID).

As for your arguments, it seems you believe Los’s ability is comparable to Andy’s. I encourage you to try your Los deck in Andy, finding only room for the Rebirth, and see if she’s not able to play the game you describe much better. You want to be set up to land Siphons early? 9 cards and the most orgasmic mulligan ever will get you there way more consistently over Los’s 5 cards and a conditional 2 credits per turn.

That’s a weird way to put 80% of Andy’s first turns. I play Netrunner to experience her first turns. Just talking about them makes me warm inside. Light a candle, close your eyes, and listen to some of these:

  • Hedge, Career Fair Temujin Archives, Dirty Laundry Archives, Sec Test.
  • Desperado, Dirty Laundry, Career Fair Earthrise, Sec Test.
  • Hedge, Hedge, Desperado, Daily Casts.

Need I mention, after playing these, you still have a hand that usually has a breaker and Siphons in it. Believe me, the corp is pressured after these “passive” first turns.

I’ve got a plan for Andy’s late game with Rubicon. It’s called Rebirth into Los. And ride the tail end of my more consistent start, which led to more consistent Siphoning, which led to a bigger credit pool, which led to more striking power late game.

Netrunner is like chess, a good opening snowballs into a dominant close. Andy gives that like no other. She’s the ETF of Criminal, no other in-faction ID comes close. Geist is kind of like the CI of criminal. His is the only Crim ID that’s not better rebirthing into from Andy.

All moot points I suppose with rotation looming. I’m playing her as much as I can until then.


#23

So the big problem with those Andy turns? I didn’t force the Corp to rez any ICE on any of those turns you list. Unless I Dirty Laundry’d into an ICE’d server, which generally isn’t a good idea. On the other hand, it wouldn’t trigger Los, either, so… win?

Also it shows you aren’t working off the list I gave in the first post. You’re right, those are very good starting Andy hands. Because Andy specifically builds her deck to have those cards in it. This deck does not have: Dirty Laundry (I wish I could fit it), Daily Casts (ditto), or Security Testing. (I’ve been brought around on Aeneas Informant, that and remembering way too many games where the Corp just puts an Eli on Archives to prevent SecTest has cooled my enthusiasm for that card. Mostly the reason to run Aeneas is that it helps more against Asset Spam, which as an ICE-derez deck you have a weak spot, and that it combos extremely well with Medium digs.)

Finally, Andy cannot facecheck HB ICE on turn 1, because a Fairchild 3.0 rez destroys her.

I will say that I’ve only ever had success with AndySucker Andy decks. Couldn’t get Takeshi’s Castle to perform better than a similar build out of Sunny. I’m generally not good with Andy. It’s related to my problem with discarding cards; I hate discarding at end of turn because it represents wasted resources to me.

Being unable to have a lategame until you draw 1/45 cards is not a solid plan, IMHO.

… 3/45 is much better. :wink: (Rubicon 3x for life!)


#24

You’re right, forgot about that list. Hehe, I wrote a whole post “fixing” it so you could make it ready for Andy, but realized it would be futile. Cut all your Hostages, then imagined your response, and gave up.

One question I do have, why Gordian Blade has got to be Abagnale. What am I missing with it being in your list?

And, if Rubicon is an end-game card, you definitely want just 2.


#25

It’s Gordian Blade because one of the ways to beat the deck is to have multiple rezzed Fairchild 3.0… And I had spare Influence to upgrade Abagnale. (I assume that’s what you meant.)

The imagined response better have said ‘Keros’ like twenty times. :smiley: But yeah, Andy and Hostage don’t mix. :slight_smile:

Rubicon is the entire reason to run this deck. If you have just 2 Rubicon, you shouldn’t be playing Rubicon, because by the time it comes to you, enough ICE will be rezzed that the primary benefit of Rubicon, making runs cheaper, won’t be useful. Making a 10-credit server into a 5-credit server is worse than making a 5-credit server into a 0-credit server.

At least, that’s my current read on the point of Rubicon. I could be wrong here.

(If it helps, it’s like running Sunny. You absolutely want 3x Security Nexus in Sunny because that card is the entire reason you’re even running Sunny, and you want it as quickly as you can so you can stop wasting clicks drawing for it.)


#26

As someone who plays a lot of Andy and a lot of non-Andy Criminal, Andy decks have to be modified a lot from other Crim decks to set up those ideal first turns.


#27

So, what about replacing a few key breakers with birbs? Saker, Peregrine, Golden.

Gives you more derez, and potentially frees influence for Ice Analyzer to make reinstalling them cheaper.


#28

I really like Hernando Cortez in a Los list. The more you can drive up the differential between cost-to-rez and cost-to-derez, the better, right? And with so many decks running multi-sub ice these days - 15 to rez chiyashi, 11 to rez DNA-tracker …


#29

I’ve generally been finding that I win games by forcing the Corp to actually spend money rezzing their ICE over and over again, keeping them too poor to rez everywhere.

Thus, Hernando, who depends on the Corp having money to do anything whatsoever, doesn’t fit in my deck. I do like effects that make ICE cost more to rez (Xanadu merits more consideration, perhaps…) but I’m also finding more evidence that having a gameplan entirely centered around Rubicon isn’t where to go; that Rubicon supplements other gameplans, giving you a secondary win condition revolving around making the Corp poor. (Basically, I’m winning games without Rubicon out at all.)

The main things I’ve been finding have been that you have to have your economy set up and rolling first before starting the Rubicon Denial Train. If you haven’t found Temujin, Aeneas (multiples), Kati, Desperado, or landed a Siphon, you simply cannot use the Rubicon Switch. Keros and Los are supplements to those others, but you need one of the others before you can Rubicon Everything.


#30

Yes, I’ve spent a couple of afternoons on it. I came to the OCA idea independently and hadn’t seen anyone else mention it until reading this. I simply felt there are so many synergistic connections that it would be silly not to try.

I actually find that many of these cards (Hernando, Keros, Maxwell, some others) do absolutely nothing but replace themselves until some hypothetical later point in the game—where ice can be rezzed and derezzed at will—or simply don’t generate enough value (Compromised Employee). The problem is Los’ ability makes you want to run and facecheck early, at which point the corp will be perpetually below Hernando’s ten credits, and once the ice is all rezzed it ceases to be a Rubicon target once you find and install it. Keros will sit there doing nothing for long periods of the game as a result. I am also highly suspicious of “helpful” non-unique 3x cards that stack to provide a sturdy benefit if all are installed (Compromised Employee, Aeneas Informant). Often you won’t find enough of them to make a difference early, and then draw them later when their utility is less impactful. I’d rather have Daily Casts, for example.

As a result you end up with a deck full of support cards that only hypothetically belong because they hint at the same archetype. Believe me when I say that, after dozens of games as Los, he’s best as an early-game aggressor, much like Gabe. Siphons, Turning Wheel, etc. The fact that the ability hinges on ice rezzes is best considered incidental.

But… the missing piece seems to be the new event Leave No Trace which was just released yesterday. It’s a two credit run event with text to the effect “Make a run, derez any ice rezzed during this run at the end of the run.” I think Keros’ ability makes sense now, even if Leave No Trace is in some contexts a nonbo with Rubicon Switch.

Seems to me what they’re hinting at is a board state where Los starts his turn with all the ice unrezzed and ideally one way or another derezzes any ice that does gets rezzed by the end of his turn.


#31

This, I’ve found, is the ideal game state for Los.

It’s also extremely difficult to achieve. Not to mention that there are decks, like AgInfusion, that also operate well from this board state.


Had a long conversation with someone after they wrecked Paradise Los (@tolaasin’s variant… I told him I’d take it out for some testing.) Turns out having a Fairchild 3.0 on R&D, HQ, and the only Remote is really bad for Los+Rubicon. My opponent apparently also was trying some Los+Rubicon shenanigans.

We debated about Compromised Employee. I tried it briefly in the Andy OCA build, and retired it pretty quickly because it doesn’t help with setup, and doesn’t really help keep the board state de-rezzed. As an example, pretend that you have all 3 Comp Employees, Keros, and Rubicon Switch, and Abagnale. If the Corp rezzes FC3.0, you gain 5, spend 7 to break, spend 6 to de-rez and gain 2. Net cost: 6 credits to the Corp, 6 credits to the Runner. And two clicks for the Runner. (One to run, forcing the rez, one to Rubicon.) Basically you clicked twice for a tagless Vamp. Without other Econ in play, repeating this is not a winning strategy.

Argument: "But you get a successful run off of it!"
Counter: This is only true if FC3.0 is the only ice on that server. Which, with 6 cards installed costing you 15 credits, is extremely unlikely. If FC3.0 is not the only ICE on the server, you have to pay more money to break it, and cannot Rubicon both ICE if it were just rezzed, and don’t get Los payout if it was rezzed… Basically, if there’s other ICE there, you’re paying more credits for the Successful Run. We can essentially ignore that transaction because we’re looking strictly at trying to keep the Corp’s board de-rezzed off of Compromised Employee.

Argument: "But Vamp is a good card and a good strategy."
Counter: Yes, but not unsupported Vamp. Also, Vamp takes only one click. Vamp is usually supported by Mopus (or sometimes Congress drip) which is arguably the most powerful Runner Economy Engine in the game. Mopus also takes one card and 5 credits instead of 5 cards and 11 credits. (The difference in numbers from here and earlier is that I’m not counting Abagnale here, since I’m looking at the Economy Engine.)

Basically, you have to have some form of Economy Engine running to support de-rezzing the Corp’s board constantly, and Compromised Employee/Keros/Los is not enough. 7 credits/turn doesn’t look good when you have to break the ICE as well.

That said, 7 credits/turn is a LOT. That’s Congress-level economy. The reason it’s not good enough is that you have to spend that money to de-rez and break. This happens to suggest that the deck is very good at dealing with Gearcheck ICE, but not Taxing ICE.

I believe the deck might need to adopt a philosophy similar to Dumblefork, where it really really doesn’t want to break expensive ICE more than once. ICE Destruction might play well into our strategy here. After all, it’s easier to keep the Corp’s boardstate de-rezzed if they have a smaller boardstate…

(Going to look into En Passant + SoT strategies, instead of E-Shutdown/FAO.)


#32

En Passant is brilliant. You run, pay to pass the ICE, access. Switch it, kill it. Probably want 3x, though, and that 6x Inf.

SOT is good, but you might consider some Rip Deal too for extra En Passant and Siphon spam.

Likely cut whatever doesn’t support the EnPas/AS/Switch plan.