Damon stated that cards will only be considered for MWL if they have been released for six months. He also says that he will update the MWL between regionals and nationals. That means that Museum can’t be added until GenCon time period, which is when Nationals start. Grr.
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That’s OK, because Museum doesn’t need to go on the MWL. Museum needs to be banned.
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On the bright-side (if there is one to be found on Most Wanted List) Faust will probably be on it so everyone can stop complaining about that.
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Did we really need yet another thread to complain about a card not being on the Most Wanted List?
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Just make every cards on MWL so people will stop make another thread about these thngs.
Oh wait.Then they will want some cards banned.
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Someone at our LGS (and I’m sure many others on and offline) have joked about a Least Wanted List, a selection of cards so abysmal that one receives additional influence for including them in your deck.
I’m talking Window, Disrupter, Bug, Titanium Ribs… The list goes on and on and on and on.
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Six months is not a problem. Every deck that might need to be weakened via MWL has important pieces which are older. I guess Damon will wait with update to see Origins results and will update so new MWL is in place for GenCon.
Just imagine what Damon will do if Kate wins GenCon for the fourth year in a row.
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I think 6 months is the perfect minimum amount of time, personally. It’s about the length of a single cycle, which gives a lot of time for counter cards later in a cycle to get released and time for the meta and community to adjust. If a card continues to dominate the meta after 6 months then I think it deserves to be reevaluated. But anything less than that and you may not even see the entire cycle’s worth of cards. Sometimes an OP card is printed in the first pack (Museum) and you don’t see a hard counter to it until you’re well into the cycle (Salsette Slums). So I’m totally fine with this.
Plus he didn’t really say that a card couldn’t be errata’d or banned in less than 6 months, though I doubt Damon would consider banning a card before putting it on the MWL.
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I think having a six month rule is pretty questionable if you’re only going to update the list every six months. This potentially allows a broken card to run the format for 11 months, which is way too long. Sure, you can hit other parts of the deck, but you both hit fair decks and other problems decks can appear (think, Faust was in DLR Val, also in Noise, also in Dumblefork).
I think a lot of this is the problem that Damon has (and Lukas had as well in being unwilling to have any sort of banned list), of looking at the game from the perspective of a designer rather than a player. You listen to them talk, and their priorities seem to be having a diversities of cards and factions represented. This is mostly something players want as well, but normally isn’t the biggest priority. Player primarily want fun games, and are interested in having cards be hit that have heavily game / meta warping effects (Faust / Mumbad City Hall / MoH / WNP).
You can see this in Damon’s explanation for the original MWL. Desperado wasn’t hit because it was too degenerate for game play experience, but to encourage other consoles in crim to be used. Yog because it hurt the design space for code gates. Prepaid voice pad for events (which, Damon like 99% of people, don’t understand how prepaid Kate worked. Its an underworld contact that works if you have a critical mass of good event cards in your deck. It doesn’t restrict event design in the sense that you have to think about a card being played at -3 cost, but is there a deck that can include this card to go over a certain event density where prepaid kate triggers every turn). Lady hurts the design space for barriers and because its out of color, etc, etc.
The six month time frame of cards seems to stem from Damon’s interest in letting the work itself out into what he believe is the correct state. He seems to believe that that everything in the cardpool has a good answer, and is mainly interested in preventing an overreliance on certain cards (Desperado, etc). This can be incorrect and tends to ignore the fact it can be pretty miserable to play in a faust or IG dominated meta for 8 months until Damon finally admitted there was a mistake.
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I think it’s weird to claim it’s like an underworld contacts, when it functions in no way similar to an underworld contacts. she could install the ppvp for 1 credit and it paid itself off in a single click.
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Both provide a 1 credit drip that you can only get if you fulfill certain deck building constraints (sufficient link to find vs sufficient agenda density). Prepaid is comes in at cost 1 because you use it turn 1 and out of Kate you get an extra credit. These are real benefits, but they’re both just 1 credit a turn drips (one of which is obviously better, primarily because it combos with good cards, and minorly because it costs 0).
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I spent a solid two weeks trying to explain this. It just doesn’t work out in some peoples heads for some reason. But it is just a Hardware UWC with other requirements. There is zero reason for it to be MWL.
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Ppvp isn’t an underworld contacts. Underworld requires you to play link cards or be sunny, both of which aren’t very good. Ppvp is a credit cheaper in an already good runner with access to a relevant card pool, and requires you to play already good events, that you would play regardless of the extra credit.
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Underworld Contacts would be really good if it cost 1 credit, provided a drip on the turn you played it, and didn’t require any additional card support (or Sunny). The point SimonMoon is making is that this is a better way of thinking about PPVP (and rightly so), rather than strange discount on events.
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In the same way that it’s wrong to think of Pre-Paid Voice PAD as making events cost less (but rather an Underworld Contact with the trigger “play an event” instead of “have two link”), it’s equally wrong to think of PPVP as ever costing one credit.
The credit reduction is all about Kate, nothing to do with PPVP. You might as well say it costs zero, because of Inside Man! The one credit reduction should be assessed separately as part of Kate’s efficiency, not as anything to do with PPVP.
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Ahh its ok, People will always have cards to complain about, now can we put Account Siphon the list, its been wreaking the game since core! Hmm except for that part where it wasnt but its still good
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OFF: Desperado, Yog.0
ON: Faust, Chronotype, MumbaTemple
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That looks fine, but I would remove also PPVP from the list, and add also Mumbai city hall…
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On PPVP: I beat that topic to death, and then pummelled it a bit more about 6 months ago.
UC pays runners for running additional link, which for most runners is only useful to activate abilities on other cards (e.g. UC, Cloud breakers). Link by itself is not particularly useful and is not run without support cards. I do not know of any runner who deliberately include link boosts without support cards.
Very few, if any, successful runners don’t include events. Events are very powerful and enable a wide range of useful actions (e.g. multiaccess, ICE destruction, economy). PPVP rewards the runner every turn they play an event, which they will often do even if PPVP is not in their deck.
PPVP makes useful and powerful cards even better by providing additional economy. These cards were already in your deck, so the extra economy of PPVP does not dilude the deck. UC elevates a marginal effect, link, to a useful level, but you were not going to run link without UC, so you have to dilute your deck with ‘dead’ cards that are only included to enable a combo.
PPVP >> UC.
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