Down with Kate

Netrunner General
41

There are decks that play netrunner and decks that don’t.

Decks that play netrunner: any deck I like or decks that capture what I feel this game is about.

Decks that don’t: decks that don’t fit my play style or emphasize aspects of the game I don’t think are interesting.

These are just facts, @Danwarr

(Edit: don’t mean to jump all over @Killonaire since I think they were making a valid point about economy efficiency IDs vs build-around IDs but the distinction is definitely not which IDs play netrunner and which don’t)

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42

Perhaps I should be more clear.

‘Plays CONVENTIONAL netrunner’ vs not. Ie, Run a few times for early access and pressure, eventually get breakers for the 3 types of ICE with or without an AI or utility breakage systems, and some central pressure and a remote threat, and beat the Corp to scoring out by the end.

As opposed to weirder build-arounds such as ‘Force corp to rush the game due to virus discards’ or ‘Have crazy Nasir ‘I love facechecking’ engine’ or ‘Look at my zany deck with 40 influence worth of programs I need to leverage for some sort of positive result’.

You know, things that literally cannot be accomplished by other IDs. While ‘Play Netrunner’ is about basic things that all IDs can do, but some just do better.

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43

[quote=“voltorocks, post:4, topic:5747”]

I think no, probably not ever. The one influence is too much of a hit, and there will only ever be 45 slots to fit in more and more programs .
[/quote]yeah, i think people misevaluate The Professor by waiting until enough good programs come out.

the problem isn’t the programs. it’s the 1 influence available for events, hardware, and resources that also competes with a second copy of a 1 influence program.

some people have said Rebirth fixes him, but imo, his deck limitations are still there. in fact, moreso, since your one influence is spent on this card just to change IDs halfway through the game.

the way to fix the professor is to add more cards like Monolith, Freelance Coding Contract, and Clone Chip, so that programs are used as currency and provides more of a toolbox shaper style of play where the heap is where you grab what you need. this would also help fix Exile, but the problem is Monolith is practically unplayable at 18c install cost, how else are we going to do ‘discard useless programs to gain cash,’ and Blacklist & Chronos Project exist. the biggest problem is that any of these newer cards also buff Kate

Kit had a great ability that could have rivaled Kate’s, but they messed up by only giving her 10 influence imo. i think Rebirth to some extent helps to curb that, but i suppose that also depends on how reliably you get to swap IDs and how early. Kit has amazing early aggression that won’t be available if she’s some other ID for the early game

i think Hayley was the first real contender for Kate, having extra clicks even if she didn’t have as much money, but people are still on Kate. maybe it’s because Hayley is newer? we’ve had enough to make great decks for Kate but not enough time yet for Hayley, or maybe that extra click isn’t that great after all.

Nasir has improved a lot in this past cycle imo with Faust, Drug Dealer, and Film Critic helping some of his weaknesses. i actually think that Rebirth is the final piece of the puzzle for Nasir. the problem with his ability is that, at some point in the game, you just want to completely shut it off, and Rebirth lets Nasir do that. it’s also a point that doesn’t necessarily happen too early, so Nasir can do his normal early-game shenanigans and gain mountains of credits as he runs all the things, then turns into Kit or something so he can keep his money and not get totally hosed by a Pop-up Window

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44

Not sure if it was mentioned, but a Core 2.0, or something that fixes a number of Core problems, seems ideal.

For that reason, it will not happen.

(say what you will about Damon, but I had good 10+ min conversation with he and Lukas at Worlds, and I had my convictions that he is more apt to change things than Lukas confirmed. Let’s hope.)

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45

I agree, biggest thing to open up crazy deck diversity you be a rework to so many of the most grossly tuned cards: the core set. Too bad I can’t think of a good business reason they’d do this…

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Making cards you bought non-legal is a reason in itself that they would never do a revised core. (edit for clarity and cuz i suck)

Like seriously enough of one where i never expect a ‘revised’ core.

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47

I’m not sure I’m down with a revised core. Rotation should help but what I would really like to see is them releasing updated versions of old ID’s that were designed too weak. Push the envelope a little bit with the design power and stop being too cautious.

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[quote=“bahram, post:46, topic:5747”]
Making cards you bought non-legal is a reason in itself.
[/quote]?? seems like a reason to not do a core 2.0 (which you seem to agree with… misread then?)

I fully agree that they will never do this, though it’s too bad imo. If we were talking about a video game, patching the core set would be priority #1. Ah well,such are the trade offs we pay in order to enjoy playing in meatspace :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=“JTG81, post:47, topic:5747”]
Push the envelope a little bit with the design power and stop being too cautious.
[/quote] It seems to me like they are doing this already; excluding laramy (special case) there haven’t been any truly DOA IDs since…honor and profit? that can’t be right… Anyways, the trend seems very strongly away from the “gimped by influence” flaw that ruined so many early IDs.

[quote=“JTG81, post:47, topic:5747”]
what I would really like to see is them releasing updated versions of old ID’s that were designed too weak.
[/quote]Sadly, I don’t know if I see this happening anytime soon, for the same reasons Core 2.0 won’t ever be a reality. ID diversity will probably have to come from new IDs, and revitalization of IDs that are currently borderline decent.

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You got it, editd for clarity

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One other thing I would like is to have runner specific cards. What I mean is cards that are designed to be used by a certain ID and every other ID either a) can’t use that card or b) must pay influence to use that card. This may help the design team to print very strong cards to help bump weaker ID’s while hopefully not breaking the game.

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51

Maybe I’m salty after hitting 4 Noises at worlds. Still, don’t like that guy.

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52

I generally get what your trying to say. Personally, I like to think about Netrunner IDs in two ways: Economic and Denial (alternatively I guess this could be called a “control” style deck). An economic ID being one that saves credits, clicks, or cards while a denial ID is one that hurts the opponents credits, clicks, or cards.

Kate and ETF are a couple of the best examples of economic IDs. They save you money over the course of the game. In a game that is fundamentally about breakers and credits, this is a major advantage.

Reina and RP are great examples of Denial IDs. Both IDs force extra investment from their opponent in order to play the game. This can hurt the opponent, especially if caught unawares or if the denial ID is given ample time to set up, but they can also, sometimes, be played around.

I think it’s unfair to say that some IDs “don’t play Netrunner”. Denial IDs force you into bad positions, which makes it sometimes feel like you’re not getting to play your game. But if every game of Netrunner was exclusively about “breakers and credits”, then I think Netrunner would be pretty boring.

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53

Perhaps a more general description would be that ID’s either give the player a bonus, or their opponent a penalty. ‘Economic’ and ‘Denial’ cover it pretty well, but I’d call it ‘positive’ vs ‘negative’.

Interesting to note that Economic or Positive ID’s seem to be the majority if not the totality of “competitive” ID’s during the game’s history. Maybe because it’s easier to plan around?
Positive “competitive” ID’s:
Kate
Andromeda
Valencia
MaxX
ETF
NEH
Blue Sun
BABW (way back in the early days)

Negative competitive ID’s:
RP
PE
Leela

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54

Lukas wanted to errata/nerf/boost/redo cards, he wanted this for a long time.
FFG don’t want to.

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55

Because Valencia always comes with 3x Blackmail for me she’s also a “negative” ID. Normally she denies rushing out an agenda pretty well. Similarly Blue Sun denies the runner the “face-check everything to make the corp poor” strategy. So I wouldn’t say that these IDs are purely positive.
The negative list is missing Noise.

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56

The only way to do this fairly (in light of their ‘core don’t rotate’ announcement) would be to do what Privateer Press did with the new edition of Warmachine: offer free 1:1 trade-ins of old cards for new cards.

There will be a cost to that (printing cards that won’t be paid for, postage costs) that FFG won’t want to bear. However, it needs to be done, and the longer they wait the higher the costs will be because of the increasing number of Core Set 1.0 that will have been sold. The alternative, printing Core Set 2.0 without a free trade-in, would forever destroy the trust between the player-base and the company.

Waiting is a huge mistake, both from a financial perspective, and the health of the game. If I were a new player that wanted a competitive game, but did not particularly like Kate or ETF, I’d probably be looking elsewhere.

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Free trade is utopia, we live in the real world.
They could rotate the coreset and do a coreset 2.0, with only 3-of.

I’ve got 2 of them, and would like some day to buy a third sansan, but not for 40€/$.

That is a question you US guys of Stimhack should ask. I think you’re closer to FFG than most of euroguys.

(or should frenchies ask this to Asmodee ? :))

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Not quite sure what this means. If that was in response to me, I’d point out that I gave a real-world example (Privateer Press) who had the same balance issues with their early product and found a way to update without alienating their players. While there is a (growing) up front cost, it fixes the long term problem while improving, rather than harming, player investment and loyalty.

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Always 3x Blackmail? Nah. Dropped the 3rd one a long time ago. It’s not that good if you can break in anyway. (Source: many months of Good Stuff Val play)

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60

For once I actually agree with @anon34370798 (shudder) - this is a big false equivalency since in warmachine a huge collection might have a few dozen cards total (not to mention each one was purchased with a $30 miniature…). Even if we assume only a fraction of the core set cards need reprinting (not really true, almost every aspect could use updating, even if only for cost/influence tweaks) given people’s multiple sets we’d be taking about hundreds of free cards per player.

Given that we’re comparing fixed, no-return costs, it’s also worth pointing out that a lot, lot more people play netrunner than warmachine. At our store, the replacement cards for Warmachine came in a little deckbox, and they had extras. free core set reprints for the same store (not a big one) would need a pallet…

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