Zu beats Peregrine on install cost alone. Being more efficient on anything that isn’t Strength 2, 5, or 8 is just another nail in the coffin. (They’re even on Strength 0-1, 4, and 7, and Zu wins on Strength 3, 6, and 9. Notable 6 strength Code Gates are Archangel and DNA Tracker. Strength 3 Code Gates aren’t really played. Magnet and Aiki are the closest to being played a lot. Against Zu, Enigma and Tollbooth are often played. Still, you have to run through an Enigma four times before you’re even with Peregrine because of install cost.)
I do think it’s interesting that the birds are (slightly) better than Aurora/Peacock, though.
Mostly what I was getting at is that Corroder vs Saker feels closer than Zu vs Peregrine. (Because Barriers are either trivial speedbumps to both (Wraparound/Resistor/Vanilla) or expensive enough that the Derez ability matters. (Hive, Curtain Wall)) So, if you’re going to spend influence for a breaker and want the greatest impact, grabbing a Code Gate breaker is your best bet. Especially if you grab Yog and Datasuckers are your plan… (Just beware of Lotus Fields.)
Install cost is not that big of an issue. People are still using Gordian inside or outside of faction.
There are similar common example that you might want to derez with Peregrine: either break the Quandry/Engimas of the world or consider dezerring the Fairchildren 3.0 and Tollbooths.
I think we can all agree that if you’re running Aviary breakers run them with Datasuckers and a run-based economy.
I’ll also say, that I won’t be surprised if Andy only spends influence on Datasuckers as part of the breaker suite and uses some combination of Femme/Mongoose/Golden/Faerie, Peregrine, and Saker. And uses the rest of the influence on better things. One of the advantages of the other factions has been that they don’t really need to spend much influence on breakers outside of their own faction.
So with the rise of Nexus Andy (with or without DLR), would this period be the last chance for us poor crims to shine competitively-wise before rotation hits?
Although, to be fair, Geist is a pretty strong contender as well.
Nah, there’s definitely hope that crims will get gaps filled with strong cards in the next cycle and expansion. Of course, if they don’t, then yeah, they will continue to stay non-competitive.
I think these “Crims Stink Wah Wah Sad Face” threads have done a decent job of underscoring what’s lacking from the criminal card pool. Crims have to spend more influence on things like breakers, draw, recursion, etc, before they can spend it on combos and tech cards (which is why the bird breakers are so relevant - now you can have a sub-par but playable option for no influence if needed). So if we see ways for crims to fill in their gaps for no influence, they can have a resurgence.
And yeah, Geist is really unique in his own right. He’s the equivalent of Noise in blue, with his own engine and everything. I think his biggest weakness is his slow setup vs CtM. Everything else is gravy.
I think there are a few playable blue decks right now, but if worlds were held today, would any criminals make the cut?
My gut says no.
It really depends a lot on getting top players who like criminals to play one over whizz. Whizz overall is at least as powerful, and doesn’t really have any bad matchups. If my life depended on me winning with a runner, I’d drop my Andy deck and sleeve whizzard.
if worlds were held in a post castle world the cut would be full of criminals… my current build is notching 85-90% vs CTM in testing; no need for nexus 5 click turns vs ctm is enough to tip the balance
I found your build really good against CtM & HB, just adding Citadel, since it’s so strong in the classical Andy build.
But
Do you think that build is going to do well when Martial Law goes live? Things like the new double install terminal operation for HB is going to hurt very bad that MU.
dont see how that card is any different to russian NEH with TS triggers - once setup with desperado/sectesting andy doesn’t care how many assets the opponent installs the entire board is getting trashed and then she will pick off a super dense R&D/HQ with medium and legwork
I was thinking more about a Foodcoats build, bringing Breaker Bay & Campaigns back (or AAL or defensive upgrades) for a solid eco, can be a problem for criminal.
that sure will be a good use of the card, but its not suddenly going to make that archetype competitive (especially as the slots are tight so its inclusion is replacing cards like archived memories or biotic labour which are already very good themselves).
as an Andy player, the future card that truly bothers me is Hunter Seeker.
I had been reluctant to believe this, but my experience this weekend has really convinced me that these Citadel criminals are actually quite strong. I also like the new name I have for my list.
I will certainly admit that the Nexus is not necessary for the NBN match-up. I often don’t install it unless I want to bypass a Data Raven to steal QPMs.
I still don’t think Sec Test is necessary with Power Taps and John Masanori with Citadel online. It is essentially the same click for 2-3 credits using cards that you are already using. I guess it’s better with Desperado, but I really like the Nexus for the glacier match up.
That castle is a Johnny card It only does anything with the right pieces to back it up.
I hear what you are saying, but in this meta, this deck is pretty competitive. Corps are fast, but not blindingly so. CtM can score a lot of its small agendas quickly, but will struggle to close without an EoI play. SYNC needs to burn the citadel down, likely more than once on multiple 24/7 plays.
If we had to worry about the Astro-chain then I could see this deck being too slow, but so far I haven’t seen a corp that can consistently out-rush my list. Some very good players have tried, and sometimes they succeed, but I’m still healthily above 50% on those races.
Citadel works wonderful with account siphon (-1 click & tag to remove), helps a lot against ICE with tags (Data Raven) and beats so hard CtM, better than Employee Strike for no influence cost in my opinion.
Also covers your ass against some kinda classic burn. Not the best, but still decent.
You dont need many janky cards around citadel to work, just classical & solid criminal cards .
In fact, that’s not the real problem at all, since you can minimize the impact of a nexus setup nowadays. The real problem is the nexus-style way to attack centrals.
With a regular Andy, you can deny their eco with more than 1 click, then hit hard R&D and lock, floating tags (Oh, citadel is really good in that situation too!). With a Nexus build, that’s more difficult to do, since you can only use your Nexus once per turn, so you have to deny all their economy with 1 run.
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