If they didn’t use any other programs, they can correct the game state by trashing a program. It’s late, but the game state can be corrected. Did they have to break any ice on Archives to break through? Did they use any non breaker programs (for example use Imp on a card in HQ)? If so, that makes it more complicated. If for example they broke an Ice Wall on Archives to get successful runs, they’d have to keep Sneakdoor and the fracter/AI that got though. It only gets complicated if the runner uses every installed program while over MU.
My gut reaction for a simple case of forgetting to trash before installing the program is definitely a verbal caution if it’s easily correctable, a written warning depending on any previous infractions and the level of tournament play.
I wouldn’t know what to do in the more complicated situations though… say you’re Haarpsichord, you’ve got HQ iced to oblivion, but archives has an Ice Wall, Quandary, and Swordsman. The runner has Corroder, Passport, Mimic, Imp, and a 1 available MU. They’ve also got a Film Critic. Then the turn:
Click 1 installs Sneakdoor,
click 2 runs the sneakdoor (using all of their breakers) access an agenda from HQ & steal,
click 3 runs Sneakdoor again accessing an agenda using Imp, then
click 4 runs archives normally to hit the agenda with Film Critic, but you shuffle the agenda back into your deck with Jackson Howard.
After that turn, you notice the runner is sitting on 6 MU out of 5 MU, and they just stole 2 points and you shuffled 2 face down cards into R&D along with the agenda they Imp’d… that isn’t so easy to fix. So you’re supposed to “leave the game as it is but remind players to be more mindful of the game state”?
It might correct the physical state of the game in terms of which cards are in play and which aren’t, but it doesn’t correct the “meta-state” of the game. What do I mean by that? Well, if the game had played out properly the runner should have chosen which card to trash when the new program is installed; but your “fix” of the game state creates an advantage for the runner because he doesn’t have to choose which one to trash in advance and has instead been able to see which ones were useful or necessary. In effect, the runner benefits from unauthorised information by delaying the decision to a later point in time.
Sure in some cases it might be obvious - an empty Imp would not have been used and is an obvious target for trashing; but supposing the runner had three breakers and Datasucker with all ICE unrezzed? How does he know what to trash in advance - he’s probably at an educated guess, but by allowing the fix to be applied retrospectively the runner has now had a chance to potentially reveal some of the ICE (new information) and make the correct decision about which programs to keep once the game state catches up.
What’s more, if the infraction is only a verbal warning it essentially puts the onus on the corp to police the runner’s game state. An unscrupulous runner can gain a clear advantage by “forgetting” certain things and only gets a slap on the wrist once the corp notices. That doesn’t seem right to me. The fairest system would be for players to be responsible for their own game state. Would trashing a random program be fairer in the MU example? What would you then do if the runner claims that their choice at the time was obvious (such as an empty Imp)? This is where there needs to be scope for a TO to come in and make a judgement call - some cases allowing the obvious card to be trashed if he views it as a genuine error, but sometimes enforcing a more stern penalty if an advantage has been gained.
The floor rules indicate that there is no such thing as “the Runner’s game state” or “the Corp’s game state.” There is a single game and both players are equally responsible for policing it (i.e. you should be reminding your opponent of their PAD campaign credits as eagerly as you remember your own!). I know you are uneasy with it, but to me it seems a great policy for encouraging friendly and fun gameplay (even in super-serious-gameface-are-you-aware-there-is-a-card-game-at-stake-here tournament games). It means the principle is that while you compete as hard as you can within the realms of the game to win, the game itself is seen a combined enterprise. To me that seems much nicer than your alternative of having bits of the game itself that each player is responsible for, which would seems to me to introduce the idea of being opponents to some extent in creating the game environment itself (rather than just opponents in the tactics you use within it).
I like this thought; game state and environment being a team effort. In that vein, I always try to remind my opponents of their triggers, Bad Pub, and Sucker tokens. Yeah, it could lose me the game. I don’t care. It’s a fuckin’ game. People that can’t understand that need/want the wins more than I do.
I love the ideals behind this, but the reality is that it’s exploitable and you shouldn’t by writing a set of floor rules with loop holes. Before the floor rules we already had a fun, friendly environment in which most people tried to play nice. You don’t need to write rules for something that already exists almost by default. What you do need rules for is to clear up grey areas and what we’ve ended up with is nothing of the sort. It hasn’t tackled any of the tricky issues judges are facing but has introduced a framework within which unscrupulous people can gain an advantage.
I fully understand that it’s both players’ responsibility to maintain THE gamestate; what I’m saying is that it shouldn’t be the case - there should be separate sides and both players responsible for their own board. That makes it completely clear who is at fault when an infraction occurs.
As things stand a player can intentionally “forget” about something to gain an advantage and the onus is on the opponent to notice; if/when they do the only penalty is a verbal warning. That can’t possibly be right.
You don’t need to legislate for the spirit of the game - most people were already playing within it. But you do have to be mindful of the people who are playing outside it and not give them even more opportunities to exploit the rules than they already had. If you made the change I’m endorsing then instead of the “spirit of the game” being that both people are equally responsible for the game state and trying not to cheat, players become responsible for their own card effects and if an error is made the “spirit of the game” would be the opponent choosing to point it out and allowing a correction, as opposed to allowing the offending party to be penalised.
Hayley really makes the clot issue doubly annoying. I lost a game in a casual tournament not too long ago as Hayley by a Biotic play, with clot in hand. He did the usual “throw down agenda and biotic gg” move, and I, being inexperienced with Hayley triggers and used to the hand being the one dead spot for shaper paid ability tutors, didn’t question that and gave him the game. If he’d played it out properly I’m almost certain I would have taken the time to think it through, as that is my habit in situations like that. It’s my fault for not knowing my deck well enough ultimately (which of course made it doubly frustrating), but those type of shortcut plays seem to be pretty much dead now.
Whelp, looks like these rules will already need some amendment. US Nationals Conquest winner is being accused of cheating rather badly, and the evidence doesn’t look good. The rules don’t have any provisions for stripping awards or titles though.
I’ll make one post here because I’m just now being informed of all of this.
I’ll start with this: As ridiculous as it seems this was all a mistake. I was as surprised as everyone else. Yes I know this will not be believed but it’s the truth. It was a long day I was terrified ( I’ve never done well in a big tournament) I was shaking I was tired my hands were sweaty and I wasn’t paying proper attention. I’m not trying to lose these things as excuses but more just relaying the situation. I promise I feel more terrible about this than anyone else and those that have been around me today will tell you that.
The truth is I’ve never been accused of cheating in my life, it isn’t about the win for me at our local tournaments I don’t even take prizes so that others can be excited and have the things that they want. I’ve even been a judge for magic: the gathering. I’m truly sorry this has occurred and I accept what ever assumptions people come to about me. Reguardless I’m going to do whatever I can to make this situation as right as possible. While this was a mistake it was a detrimental one so I agree Kenny should be the national champion. If anyone could get his address I’d be more than willing to mail the trophy. And if my opponent from round 7 and top 16 could get in contact with me I’d love to make sure they get their dial and mat. I realize this doesn’t fix everything, and if anyone can think of anything else I can do is love to do it, but I want you to know I love and value this community. I appreciate every awesome person that has been supportive of me from other tournaments, and every awesome person I met at the event, I would never wish to take anything away from your successes. This was never about a win for me, I just really love the game and my friends at home I play with, who will and have said I’m an upstanding person.
I don’t wish to play this game “professionally” and no I had no plans of attending worlds. The only thing I wish from this is to keep integrity my community at my local store that loves playing the game, and I thank you all for listening. I do this on top of whatever action FFG deems necessary.
I know this will not satisfy most people but that’s because I don’t think there is anything I can say to satisfy most or else I would. I just ask you to consider that every last one of this community I have come in contact with has been an awesome interaction and we came away thinking great things of each other, and that speaks volumes of this community. but I hope the ones I have interacted with can see that I am a respectable person. So I’ll finish this with saying as unbelievable as it is this was a mistake I would never want to unduely take anything away from someone else. I appreciate deeply anyone understands or believes this and understand for everyone who doesn’t. Thanks for listening. Again if anyone can think of anything else that can be done or knows how to get in touch with those people, please let me know. Thanks.
Well done on his part. I thought his drawing ‘mechanic’ was pretty bad. The fact it happened multiple times should make him rethink how he draws cards.