There are at least 4 good runners. Noise, Andromeda, Kate, Chaos Theory. All 4 had representation in the top 16 at worlds, which to me means they were all playable.
Kit & Gabe were in the top 32, as well. So its just hard for me to believe there are only 2 runners.
tunnel vision at itâs best
Doesnât really blow my mind. That Tennin deck, despite using almost completely different cards, is very similar to NEH FA.
its not. its like saying that playing oldskul hb fa with sansans is same as doing neh astrobiotics.
also runner need to adjust and approach game differently vs tennin. all andys were teched against neh, yet failed against tennin. what i mean here is that with current cardpool u may actually build very good counter decks vs the field in your playgroup. this is fun to win tournaments with non standard decks because u understand the game and make valid deckbuilding choices (other than netdecking average neh/andy from worlds for example)
Letâs try.
D4VID for Blue Sun, Parasite and 3 Datasuckers so Komainu/Tsurugi doesnât cripple you. Atman rig with a Femme for emergencies.
So far that is only 10 influence, for a reasonable matchup against both RP and Blue Sun. Arguably Deus Ex recursion gives you a better than average matchup against PE so that really leaves NEH.
I would spend the remaining influence on Imp and a HQ Interface, and trade Makerâs Eye/Indexing for R&D Interfaces. Modded then becomes a natural fit to get the Interfaces out cheap. There wonât be room for Levy so the PE matchup does take a hit.
So far the above looks pretty reasonable against all 4 archetypes.
To beat NEH reliably with Kate, you need the following, essentially mandatory influence: 2 Legwork, 1 Mimic, 3 Lucky Find. That leaves you with 4. Some Procon/Kati or Opus econ will get hosed by NEH day in, day out (unless youâre really lucky and get Procon first turn all the time). This is why there are problems with the Inf. NEH takes 11 of your allotment, and you just have to stick to the most generally useful cards for the last four. The other issue is your R&D pressure, where you want Makerâs Eye for Neh, but you want RDI for RP. If you choose to stick with RDI, this now obligates you to play modded to cope with the speed decrease from running RDI. Once you are playing modded, you want more targets for it to avoid bad draws where you have econ cards that you cant use. Snowball is good for this, Gordian is good for this, which makes you think about your econ when you arent using modded to play one of these cards. Do you need Stimhack money to make up for higher average install costs?
Itâs not just playing cards that are good vs one deck or another. You build an economic system that fits together, and it is not easy.
Having many different archetypes for corp (horizontal expansion of the game) is good. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
Things get problematic when one or more archetypes get too many tools at their disposal (when they get too deep) and get super efficuent. NBN fast advice was a top tier deck for a whIle, before the addition of NEH and fast track made it broken.
The designers need (and hopefully will) get better at figuring when an archetype has enough tools and is time to come up with something new. If they keep giving existing archetypes ways to get more and more efficient, eventually we will end up with a game where the winner is determined the moment the players reveale their IDs to each other.
Also keep in mind if this is anything like what I have heard about Magic play testing, or play testing for other games. They are likely designing over a year out and canât respond in the next pack to something that happens. They canât predict everything.
Now, that said,⌠they should have seen NEHFA coming.
I hope that we are moving away from only being able to play good stuff decks competitively, and moving towards something with some more strategy to it.
However if we look at other major card games for example, say magic, there are times when just playing the best card Jank, is better than decks put together with combos and thought.
I would love to see us get to a point where we could play rock paper scissors with the different archetypes and individual I.D.'s in the game.
I think everything is fine except that NEH Astrobiotics is bullshit. If it were less bullshit then nobody would be complaining about life being hard for runners.
I think itâs a little ironic that on the one hand youâre saying itâs not just playing cards that are good vs one deck, yet you preface your post by reeling off a list of cards that are mandatory against NEH. I would argue that based on this alone, it IS about playing cards that are good against certain decks.
I think RDI over Makerâs Eye is a reasonable compromise. Andy decks run with RDI too so itâs not like TME is strictly superior. Losing Legwork and only having a single HQI is offset by the Imp allowing you to nuke Biotics out of HQ.
As for tailoring the econ for the deck, obviously Modded is necessary, and Kati Jones will fill in the rest. I also donât think Kati is too slow, it gives you enough to trash SanSans. Itâs not the same as ProCon where you are giving up a whole turn before you recover.
Modded is just as good with Atman as with Snowball and Gordian, and is more efficient in the long run. Mimic is also not necessary as Atman at 3 will cover Architect. NEH doesnât have spare influence to run Biotic, Architect AND Lotus Field after all.
Everyone would still hate playing against RP though :). edit: ugh, letâs not even talk about HB Glacier dex.
Many decks at worlds ran two each of Lotus Field, Architect, and Biotic Labor. It absolutely does have the influence to play all three, plus three Eli.
The cards are mandatory vs NEH because NEH is the most popular deck, and because NEH is the fastest deck. Either of those would be a reason to lean towards the faster cards, and since NEH is both, itâs no longer a choice. Lucky Find is not just good against NEH, it just happens to be the Econ choice that is broadly good, but is the only one fast enough to keep up with NEH. It becomes the obvious choice. Legwork is good at certain points in the game against every deck, but is the best card in the format against NEH if you can land it early (very early). Running two is not much of a choice in terms of doing well in an NEH heavy meta. Mimic is the only reasonable way in the game to get past Architect, since Lotus field being popular both in NEH and in other decks mean Atman is already necessary at 4. Mimic still does plenty of work vs. RP and Blue Sun.
Itâs not about finding silver bullets vs. NEH. Itâs about finding the way to set up your deck to beat the fastest, most popular deck, while losing as little as possible against the other good decks in the format. Legwork, Lucky Find, and Mimic are the way to do that right now. Once Clot comes out, things will change. If NEH falls out of favor just out of boredom, things may change.
Also, the Imp doesnât work the way you think it does. Getting your breakers out in time is more than enough strain on your SMCs and your econ. You donât just have an SMC every time you need a program. This is why I cut parasite from my Kate deck for worlds, there wasnât time to tutor up cards to deal with Lotus Field, Wraparound, Eli, Architect, and still get Imp/Parasite/random extraneous program.
Yeah, I feel the PPvP deck Spags (and me and a couple of other good players :p) took to the world is pretty much the most balanced deck to go against the entirety of the field. The NEH matchup is still a cointoss and probably the hardest but this variation of PPvP Kate (3 LF, 2 Legwork, Mimic, 2 sucker, 1 parasite with Snowball / Atman / Zu) have the broadest positive matchup against every popular corp deck and still got a chance against more creative/janky decks like the polish Tennin.
Now with the dog breaker, I think the double CyCy / Lady is probably better against NEH without losing that much against PE and RP but have a really really shitty matchup against Blue Sun.
I took the Makers Eye/Stimhack version and did superbly against NEH, as I intended the deck to, and the Stimhacks just made Blue Sun collateral damage. They canât keep up with the econ the stimhack version puts out. RDI/Parasite is absolutely better in a less focused meta, I agree. But if youâre going up against BS/NEH all day, give my worlds list a shot, youâll own the place.
Sure, that would be all of their ice, apart from a few Pop-Ups. Atman at 3 is enough until they draw one of their 2 Lotus Fields. I donât see the issue with that.
Mimic might be good against Architect and Caduceus, but itâs not what you want when facing Tsurugi and Komainu. Sure itâs better than nothing, but letâs face it, youâre going to Parasite them a lot more often than you plough through with a Mimic.
I run Test Runs and Scavenges in addition to SMC, so Iâm not short on tutors.
Imp isnât dead early on either when you canât get into HQ. Itâs just as good as pseudo econ to trash SanSans.
For the record, I agree PPVP Kate is definitely better against NEH because it is faster. That doesnât mean non-PPVP canât be good enough against NEH. In addition, as PPVP Kate, the match-ups Iâm worried about are RP and Blue Sun. These are the match-ups I am trying to address with my version.
To be honest, runners were tuned against NEH at Worlds and it still destroyed everything. There is no such thing as a runner deck that deals with NEH reliably. At best, itâs going to be a coin toss. Iâd much rather lose a little ground against NEH and have better match-ups against BS and RP which are far easier to build against. The slots I spend on RP and BS have a much larger impact on the match-up than anything I throw in against NEH.
Well, iâve talked a lot to Spags on this subject and we both agree that PPvP Kate got a good shot against both Blue Sun and RP. Snowball/Stimhack demolish blue sun and a single parasite even without sucker deal against most of the RP ICEs after the facecheck. I didnât play stimhack in my version but iâve got 2 replicator who help a lot on the setup phase against glacier.
But you donât need to do much, card slot wise, to deal with RP and blue sun. They arenât fast. You have time to play your game, set up, and get a solid econ rolling. David, for example, is a totally unnecessary card that doesnât help you with NEH or RP, that youâre spending a huge amount of influence on. Breakers and money are every bit as good, and more universally helpful.
Also, Iâd disagree that runners were tuned for NEH as much as youâd think. Some people were, but many, if not most didnât sacrifice the deck slots to get a good matchup against it. It doesnât have to be a coin flip if you build your deck to beat it, and give up some of the slower cards. Unless youâre my roommate, who just gets 4+ points every time the word legwork passes his lips. He didnât do much tuning and still did great against NEH ;).
Sure there is. Play a tailored fast-setup Andy deck and youâll do quite well indeed against NEH.
The gentlemen posting upstream did a good job of listing âessentialsâ for various matchups from a Shaper perspective. Could I bother you to do the same for Criminals, perhaps?
(i.e. when you say âtailored fast-setup Andy deckâ, what are the key components in your mind?)