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Hive in CI


#1

What are people’s thoughts on not running Hives in CI? I feel like Morning Star is everywhere nowadays and it nullifies the influence expenditure much too easily. I pulled the Hives for Tsurugis and haven’t really looked back. It is the same influence, only one more credit, dies to parasite roughly as easily, but always costs at least 4 or so to break all subroutines, so I feel like it’s a more consistent tax. Also, the net damage is nice, as it can help set up scorch plays, or at least threaten them, which can help slow down the runner.

Thoughts?


#2

As I’ve mentioned in my CI article, I’ve stopped using Hive as well - precisely because Morning Star is a very strong meta choice right now, and I’m already running Eli.

(also, Scorched is a bit influence-hungry :D)

Tsurugi is actually an interesting replacement!


#3

If Hive weren’t enough reason to run Morning Star, the upcoming Ashigaru certainly is. Otherwise, CI would be a monster.


#4

Lawl, “sure, pay 20 to break and you’re in. Alternatively, you can bypass with Femme for 18”.


#5

That’s the difference between Hive and Ashigaru. If they don’t have a morning star, hive inconveniences them. Ashigaru on the other hand just says you aren’t running this server, so even though they both lose to morning star, Ashigaru has such a powerful effect that I would still consider it in a meta with morning star, as it’s virtually unbreakable outside of grappling hook.


#6

Random aside, when I saw Ashigaru, I was surprised that it didn’t gain the subroutines based off the runners handsize, as I feel that would synergize better with Jintekis card pool. But that’s just me.


#7

They already have Komainu for that. Still a neat mechanic to do more with, admittedly.

Also, it’s clearly intended for CI, and is just in another faction to make it taxing to include. Jinteki can make okay use of it (keep five cards in hand, with all the Jinteki traps, and it’s better than Wall of Thorns in most circumstances), but it’s really clearly there because HB Ashigaru would be too terribly broken with CI.


#8

I wouldn’t run Hive unless I was also running Scorched or some way to win the game in one go.


#9

If this were the case, I would have expected it to be a Weyland card. “Ridiculously complicated to break barriers” seems to be their theme, after all.

(and they even have Research Station in-faction!)

This is intriguing to me. Can I have some in-depth on this line of reasoning, please? :slight_smile:


#10

They just got Hive, though. I’m not saying it’s useless for Jinteki, either – strange Ice is right up their alley, and the flavour meshes nicely with them. It’s taxing, and the best big-cost barrier they have. I’m certainly glad to have it, and, yeah, Research Station makes it even better for them (if you want to run it) while also still benefiting CI. I just forgot Research Station was a thing.


#11

Unless you’re Scorching them, it gets progressively weaker as you score points. So I definitely wouldn’t run in non-EC fast advance builds.

In EC builds, it comes down to personal preference. By the time I’m ready to score EC, I’ve basically made it out of the early game where I’m most vulnerable. I prefer my ice to stick around while I score the rest of my points - not have to re-ice HQ after I’ve already spent 12 creds scoring EC, or alternatively having to race the runner. The difficult part of the match should be over - I don’t want to make it easier for the runner to make their last couple of hail mary runs.

For the hefty influence cost, I prefer the 2 Celebrity Gifts instead, which allow me to get out of the early game faster.

On another note, Ashigaru looks like a completely different beast. I will probably snap include at least 2 of them as it’s basically a Hive that stays forever. The rest of my ice would probably need reworking to make the deck less weak to Morningstar though.


#12

But here’s the thing - Scorches (and SEA Sources, and flatline threats in general) can carry you through early game on their own easily enough, coupled with some cheap ETR - no need for Hive in that scenario. I wouldn’t run both Hive and SE in the same deck, because then I have no influence left for anything else (either that, or I’m not using two SE, which means consistency goes down the toilet)

Also, Ashigaru is a lot of things, but a Hive that stays forever it’s not. Hive usually gets rezzed turn 2 or 3 - I’m having difficulty seeing Ashigaru in that capacity :stuck_out_tongue: It’s another card that becomes amazing if you get out of the early game, but it doesn’t help you get out of it.


#13

I agree re: Scorch and Hive in CI - hence I’m not running Hive at all :stuck_out_tongue: The point I was trying to make was that Hive is horrible if you’re trying to win by scoring points.

Ashigaru won’t be rezzed on turn 2 or 3. But that’s why you rework the rest of your ice to fill in that gap. Something like the Next barrier and code gates plus Roto. They should carry you into the midgame when you drop Ashigaru and that server is safe. You’re still soft to Morningstar - I haven’t figured how to compensate for that yet - but at least you’ll have cheap ice early and still be able to tax Morningstar decks.


#14

By the time Ashigaru is out, Will-o-the-Wisp will be available as well, won’t it?

In the meantime though, I’d be tempted to compensate by way of reducing the rez cost - Oversight AI seems like a decent fit here. Let’s be real - they’re not breaking it with Corroder, and if the Morning Star comes out, most of the tax you’ll ever get out of Ashigaru is done already. I suppose there’s the odd case of Grappling Hook + some other method to break the last sub (e3, Corroder, whatever), but… shrug

And the good news is, your deck is already full of recursion, so you can get away with 2 Ashigaru, 2 Oversight AI, and recur them ad nauseam.

(it’s either that, or blow the dust off of Experiential Data :wink:)


#15

I’d prefer Will-o-the-Wisp recursion to combat Morningstar and Ashigaru for the other decks. I see Ashigaru as more of a midgame card. Early on your hand will be small, so there isn’t much point cheating it out.

Something like 2 Ashigaru, 3 Shipment, 3 Jackson (optional) and 3 Medical Research Fundraiser could work. Either they can’t get in because they don’t have breakers or they do have breakers and you Wisp them. Or you have Ashigaru and 3 creds don’t mean a thing :stuck_out_tongue:

Alternatively you could drop the Jacksons and include 2 Celebrity Gift instead of Fundraisers.

The only downside is that this won’t fit in Scorch decks. Personally, I would prefer recurring Wisp shenanigans anyway.