How do we make Weyland good?

One more thing I just thought of that they really, really need: A card that actually interacts with He3 Deposit in a meaningful, non-negative way (thanks Public Support…)

Being able to hose Atman is the most hilarious ability on any agenda, but without an in-faction reason to use it you have to be truly dedicated to jank to give it deck space, and that’s a shame.

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The Root, Capital Investors, DRT, Lizzie Mills, and Student Loans are all powerful text boxes with poor rez/trash ratios.

It would have been nice if Space Camp had a high enough trash cost they wouldn’t even consider trashing from R&D or HQ

I love the idea of “on rez” effects for ice- it would allow their ice to be more impactful even when its broken without just replicating NBN’s “on encounter” effects, and it would buff all their rez effects, like amazon industrial zone, OAI, boot camp, etc. Lots of good effects out there- gain money, drain runner money, bounce a program, etc. Too bad “give the runner a tag” would be totally broken with bootcamp and OAI.

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Plus it would make testing ground better!

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I think it would be cool if Weyland got more control over Power Counters in general. D4v1d just invalidates so much of Weyland’s ice.

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Militarized AI {{ 2 }}
/ 0 \ Agenda - Hostile
Whenever the runner accesses an agenda, give the runner a tag.
At the start of your turn, deal 1 meat damage to the runner if they are tagged.
The body of a drone, the net presence of ICE. The perfect security paradigm.
Weyland

Extending Parapet {{ 4 }}
Ice - Barrier
Extending Parapet’s strength is equal to the number of advancement counters on all installed cards.
-> Put an advancement counter on an installed card.
-> The runner loses 3.
-> Etr
Weyland [ * * * ]

Bomb Detector {{ 3 }}
Ice - Codegate Tracer
Whenever the runner breaks a subroutine on Bomb Detector, they lose 1 credit.
-> Trace^3 -> Give the runner a tag
-> Trace^3 -> End the run
Str-3) Weyland [ * * * * ]

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I think a big part of the problem is that it seems like the designers decided that Weyland is the rush faction – I infer this because they have no native fast-advance whatsoever, no defensive upgrades in-faction, and mostly binary (single-subroutine :frowning:) ice – but rush has been struggling desperately since…well, since the Core Set days, really! Inside Job means in order to threaten a rush, you have to double ice your remote. (Hey guys, remember Inside Job?) Self-Modifying Code means even Shapers are in on the counter-rush play. Faust just puts the nail in the coffin. Now every main Runner faction can thwart a rush. So, what’s the Corp supposed to do? Use ambush assets to bait runs? Oh wait, Weyland has none of those in-faction either.

It feels like Weyland just never got enough cards to even complete a full archetype for it. Even their ice is pretty awful. Most of the recent advanceable ice feels like it’s intended for rushing: space ice lets you rez beefy ice for cheap or for free; the Morph ice are there to ensure the Runner doesn’t have a matching icebreaker, which can only be possible early in the game. The problem is that they’re…not very good. It seems like they overcosted every piece of advanceable ice save for Ice Wall, forgetting that advancing the ice is itself a huge cost. Even including cards like Constellation Protocol is a cost, in terms of deck slots.

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Archer.

The one-shot solutions are too strong and easily recurred, and it’s too much of a liability against Shutdown.

I want the other half of the big, green menace to have teeth again.

Yeah, something with Power Counters would be great. What about this?

Special Task Force
Weyland Asset, 4 inf, 1 cost, 3 trash
Click: Place a power counter on Special Task Force.
Power counter: Search R&D for a card, reveal it and add it to HQ. Use this ability only once per turn.

Weyland got their second defensive upgrade in the form of The Twins. It’s not pretty, they only really work on Archer and Curtain Wall in faction, and were clearly priced at 1 influence because reasons. I guess in theory they can be utilize advanceable ICE, but it’s been proven to just be bad in practice. But there is merit is stating that the Twins does build on Weyland Archetypes: HQ control, tutoring, and self-trashing.

Everyone here has touched on good points, and there’s not much more to say.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Jinteki is in worse shape than Weyland. Probably plenty of ways to prove me wrong, but RP’s success is only a minor archetype of Jinteki, and most of its faction archetypes go unused and beaten down.

I think this goes unclaimed because Jinteki’s “gimmick” cards feel better. Weaving a trap and having the Runner not hit it feels comparably less worse than getting wrecked by d4v1d or having your Tyrant Parasuckered instantly. And the payoff of landing a Jinteki trap is much more rewarding than having the Runner ignore your 8 adv Tyrant server or Asteroid Belt + Wormhole + Wormhole remote because its too taxing.

Frankly I get more worried about losing against Weyland Rush than some sort of Jinteki Kill when I sit down in a competitive-minded game.

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Weyland’s just fine, guys. I took a pretty standard flatline Blue Sun to 4-4 at Worlds with almost no serious practice ahead of time. Got off to a hot 3-1 start with it before fatigue ended the competitive portion of my day. Despite the final record, I never really felt like it was outclassed by anyone.

Housekeeping is AMAZING! I originally put it in as a just-in-case defense against Employee Strike, but it ended up being the MVP card of the day for me. Play it early and it slows most non-Criminal runners to a crawl. Noise and DLR just cry.

Weyland’s ICE isn’t that bad if you play to its strengths. Namely, just stack barriers and watch them break themselves. Even Corroder gets pretty expensive when you’re running through Spiderwebs and Hadrians and Fire Walls all day. Forget Grim; Assassin is the big non-Archer sentry this deck was waiting for and I should have run two. Shadow is still terribly underrated.

I was burning houses down left and right. I won two games by taking out double Plascrete with Shattered Remains, and got a third with a Taurus. I only scored out in one game against a really stupid Noise player who facechecked a Shadow on click 4 and got his Pawnshop sniped.

There may be a bit of a Catch-22 here, in that Weyland’s perceived weakness leads it to being played less, which might be why there don’t seem to be nearly as many strong Weyland players around. I’ve been playing Weyland for most tournaments for the past year and it’s been just fine. Hell, Argus treated me better than Prepaid Kate during last Store Championship season!

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First of all, more agendas is the absolute last thing weyland needs. Oaktown is incredible, and when I build weyland, the question is not how to fill the last few agenda points with something bad, but whether it’s the 3rd copy of NAPD, atlas, or oaktown that should get cut.

Let’s talk about what weyland does well, at least in theory, even if it’s not well-positioned in the metagame right now.

  1. Powerful and/or versatile hoser/hate cards. Crisium grid singlehandedly adds like 20% to all crim matchups while being relevant elsewhere as well. Corptown is a start at hosing anarch.
  2. Screwing with the mechanics of scoring agendas. Public support lets weyland play more agenda points for themselves than for the runner. Oaktown pays you to score, instead of making you take a tempo hit like literally every other agenda in the game. I also think GFI is a weyland-themed mechanic, although obviously it needed to be neutral for HB (let’s just make W’s influence go farther to compensate).
  3. Cheap tutoring. Atlas and EBC, nuff said. Unfortunately, apart from corptown, there’s just nothing worth tutoring anymore right now, compared to a cycle ago. It lets you save deckslots on high-impact cards that you only should need 1 of at a time, like corptown or adonis. This ties into strong combos – they have power shutdown and the twins, although both are way underpowered.
  4. Trashing the runner’s shit. No other corp can attack the runner’s side of the board as directly and unpreventably as weyland. Scorch goes for the hand (although unfortunately is better out-of-faction, since it’s impossible to tag if you’re not NBN). Power shutdown goes for the programs. Taurus goes for the hardware. Corptown goes for the resources. Let’s give weyland more doom blades.

Now how about why weyland sucks even in light of all that?

  1. We can sacrifice agendas for nominally powerful effects, but right now, there’s no such effect that puts you on track to winning the game not through scoring even more agendas. So, these cards can be at best a plan B for your back pocket rather than the central strategy.
  2. No late-game win condition. Apparently once the runner has enough money/plascretes that they’re not worried about scorch, and enough clone chips that they’re not worried about power shutdown, and enough Lady counters that they can get into your remote, you have to keep stumbling along with your underpowered ETF deck. Can we get more alternate avenues to victory?
  3. Ice is terrible. What doesn’t get wrecked by parasite gets wrecked by david. Lotus field used to be an amazing splash for the anarch matchups until Faust came along. Nuff said.
  4. Influence is spread too thin. Again, nuff said.

It’s really popular to say that Weyland just needs an in-house replacement for Ash or Caprice, but I think that even if you did that, it would just be a worse version of RP or ETF. What weyland needs is more strong ways to completely turn the dynamics of the game upside-down. Like, stuff that corps have never been able to do before. A defensive upgrade that can do that might be fine.

So, a few ideas came to mind (the first of which is not my own) while typing all this up. Change the numbers around or whatever; I’m not thinking about balance right now.

  • An ice that makes rush good again, and relevant into the late game. “When you rez this, the runner cannot use [trash] abilities for the rest of the turn. ->Trash 1 card with a [trash] ability. -> End the run. -> End the run.” Probably sentry. Hopefully 4 strength. Hoses shaper’s early-game, and even makes them think twice about playing their Levy.
  • A good midrange ice that also helps your non-scoring win condition. “Click, discard another copy of CARDNAME, sacrifice an agenda: Do 7 meat damage.” Could be themed as like, toppling the beanstalk on the runner’s head.
  • A card that rewards you for having all your shit be face up. Originally this idea was an asset that costs 3 agendas to rez, and if all your installed cards are face up, you win the game, but that effect isn’t fun. So perhaps instead, a remote protection upgrade that’s normally playably mediocre, but “If all your installed cards are face up, the runner cannot run on this server”. Scores public agendas (and public support) risk-free! I dare you to tell me that would be overpowered. I dare you.
  • An ice that interacts with the runner’s power counters. “When you rez CARDNAME, you may pay $X to remove up to X power counters from any of the runner’s cards. -> ETR.” 7+ strength. Lets glacier handle david, and lets kill decks handle plascrete, all at once. Easy to theme as another “power grid shutdown overload” flavoured effect.

If I had to boil it down to 1 thing, it’s that Weyland needs more abilities on their ice that the runner cannot interact with. In MTG, the Eldrazi cards have “When you cast this, do something” triggers that resolve even if the spell itself is countered. Weyland should be like that. I want “When you rez this, the runner gets fucked” or “Click/paid ability: The runner gets fucked” as abilities on my ice.

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I think I agree with you that Jinteki seems to be in a more dire position than Weyland right now. But I did encounter Chris Hinke’s (@Zeromus) IG deck at Worlds that makes me think there is still life in the niche Jinkteki IDs…they just need to be tested harder and fleshed out more. This deck: Industrial Graveyard - Worlds 2015 · NetrunnerDB was a beast of a thing that flipped my opinion of IG on its head. The deck was plenty fast enough for the tournament setting and is a conundrum to go up against. It played an unconventional 4 pieces of ice, and sets up for multiple kill scenarios that are a nightmare for any runner.

We can all take a page from Chris’ book and really test out the fringe Jinteki IDs to unlock some real power. Jinteki, as it’s being played currently, feels like the worst faction (other than RP). But I think some creative deck building is coming that keeps them strong…

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A lot of Weyland’s troubles come from Parasucker - their ICE is either cheap binary, or expensive to rez and punishing. Both types are hosed when the ICE is trashed immediately. What about a defensive upgrade that protects their ICE? A few options come to mind:

ICE protecting this server cannot host cards or conditions. Trash any cards or conditions hosted on ICE protecting this server when this card is rezzed.

or

As an additional cost to lower the strength of ICE protecting this server through card effects, the runner must pay 2c. You cannot lower the strength of the ICE protecting this server below 1.

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I find Weyland the most resistant to this, actually. Even if you’re not playing Blue Sun, you’ve got lots of solid mid-range ICE available like Meru Mati and Changeling and Fire Wall.

I like your second idea more. The first one hoses Oversight AI too much for my taste.

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[quote=“gumOnShoe, post:46, topic:5699, full:true”]
Militarized AI {{ 2 }}
/ 0 \ Agenda - Hostile
Whenever the runner accesses an agenda, give the runner a tag.
At the start of your turn, deal 1 meat damage to the runner if they are tagged.
The body of a drone, the net presence of ICE. The perfect security paradigm.
Weyland[/quote]
I like ideas like this, and anything else that screws with the Runner from either score area.

I my mind, Weyland needs just a few things:

Away to turn on big cards like Archer and Corp Town fast and with smaller investment. 2/0 agendas that you want to score, like @gumOnShoe’s example, are a good start. Maybe also an upgrade that gets added to the Corp score are on access? Or things that basically screw with the score area in odd ways.

More cards that allow you to sacrifice agendas for reduced cost stuff. Archer is awesome for the price because of the agenda sac. Can a brother get a Code Gate or Trap or unique subtype (like Mythic) ICE that pushes that same envelope? Once the rush starts, Weyland ICE should put the fear of God in you.

The ability to active control the Runner’s board and where they can run. Power Shutdown is awesome, and Off the Grid is a good effect but too expensive. Let me reach out and blow up more stuff. Or let me tell the Runner that Centrals are off limits for a turn.

Tragically, I play Weyland exclusively. I just find them so entertaining thematically… anyway, a couple of thoughts.

First, I hope that FFG does not give Weyland another 3/2. All Titan needs is another 3/2 in order to become an extremely strong FA build, and I hope that isn’t FFG’s answer to “make Weyland stronger” (if you haven’t played Titan FA, try it out for 10-20 games - you’ll develop a creeping, incurable dread that every access will get one of your Atlases). I strongly believe that NR has enough of a FA focus already.

Second, one mechanic that I have been using to decent effect is forcing the runner to make expensive, necessary, but unprofitable runs through a gross scoring server to shoot down Public Supports. With 2x GFI, your agenda density is low enough that you can do this several times without egregious buildup. I think this is an interesting mechanic because - if the runner cares - it forces runs and puts a lot of pressure on a runner’s recursion / economy. However, the strategy could really use some things to make sure the runner cares:

  • Solid, game-changing assets to feed Public Supports into. Corporate Town was a good start, but too often the runner simply doesn’t care. An asset threat that compliments Corporate Town, so Weyland could go 2 EBC / CT / ??. Maybe something that threatens tags if not trashed?

  • Agenda-sacrifice-on-res-ICE that has derez / trash protection. Archer is so vulnerable and situational now that I have been just switching them out with Assassin in my Blue Sun builds. Perhaps one that is a fun barrier, given the number of easy runner answers to the Archer-like ambushes.

Third, in-faction on-encounter ICE. The question when making glacier builds is not whether you’ll put a Tollbooth in, it is whether you’ll put one or two of them in.

Lastly, more interesting BP cards. There is little way to play with the mechanic other than to get rid of it (IRS = snore).

The current cards spoiled for Mumbad aren’t exactly getting me excited (popup-barrier isn’t terrible; weird region that could be super-comboey; useless tutor), but thankfully Weyland has the least number of them spoiled so far. Hopefully there is something solid inbound.

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How broken would a 4 or 5-infulence grid that made ice immune to derezzing or trashing be?

Is a special offer, special offer, archer, Ash, (grid) scoring remote broken? :slight_smile:

No more broken than Crisium, I think. Especially if it is just one server, and has a medium-ish trash cost like 4 or 5. Or, what might be even cooler is text that says it works on Central ICE if on a Central or Remote ICE if on a Remote.