Didn’t mean to make a big kerfuffle about the OCTGN UI. I use OCTGN all the time, but I was just surprised someone said the UI was great.
Back to jinteki.net - is there anything we can do to help @mtgred speed up development?
I actually really like Windows and Microsoft. And I’m a system administrator by trade. Different strokes I guess.
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Something that nontechnical users could help with is contributing to a comprehensive rule set for the game such as ANCUR.
When you’re coding a full automation you have to think about every possible interaction to write code that covers it. This can take much longer than the coding process itself if the interactions are unclear or worse contradictory.
Having the game rules fully worked out especially in rare edge cases can thus save a lot of developer time searching through forums or Lukas’s Twitter to find rulings and combine them into a whole that makes sense.
Another thing is to discuss UI flow. For example, scoring Chronos Project in Jinteki: PE on OCTGN will exile the heap and then do the 1 net damage, which is backwards to what the player wants. Should there be a dialog box where you drag the effects up and down? Should players manually click each card to trigger the effects?
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I stay away from apple because proprietary hardware monopolies aren’t cool.
I stay away from linux because there’s way too much personal time that goes into maintaining and setting up the system only to find out you’re missing drivers or the software you’d like to be running isn’t supported.
Both of those platforms are fine though if you have the knowledge or really don’t care about those issues.
And well, that leaves me with a windows box. I don’t hate windows. There aren’t any major issues that keep me from using it (I just ignore metro). But it has the best support from 3rd party vendors and I’m not stuck with a single hardware supplier that will up charge me anytime I need anything. And its also a capable enough box to do the things I need it to do So, I wouldn’t say I’m in love with windows. But its certainly good enough.
Now, you say you really like Windows and Microsoft and I have to ask, do you actually like it to the point that you hate the other systems and would never use them? Because really, IOS is a find operating system that can do all things windows can do, sometimes better sometimes worse. And Linux, if you have the time and energy can surpass both with the level of control it grants you.
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So, mtgreds a cool guy. We spoke briefly at worlds in between rounds, and he was very nice and all smiles. And this is a cool project. And hey he knows the game (#2’s not shabby at all).
But I still really can’t get behind the project. With asmodee/FFG’s consent it’d be fine; but this is clearly a space that that organization has a right to pursue and protect. It’s a potential profit center and I couldn’t really use the site unless I knew there was some blessing from the IP holder. This is different from just presenting information and being a utility as it could actually replace buying product.
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What the player wants is one thing, but doesn’t the analogy of not flatlining from PE’s ability if the stolen agenda wins you the game imply that first you resolve the scoring/stealing process in its entirety, and then you get to trigger PE’s damage?
Maybe the player gets to choose because they both happen at the same time?
My understanding is that the agenda moves to the scoring area, points are increment, game end is checked, and then the two triggers “When you score Chronos Project” and “When an agenda is scored” trigger at the same time, allowing the active player to choose the order.
If we really want to debate it I’d like to take it to a separate thread - my point is that the rulebook itself is very light on detail so it can be tricky to do the right thing in code.
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I agree with this. OCTGN could be viewed more as a way to playtest decks and thus serve more as a utility. I think anyone who takes the time and effort to invest into OCTGN would buy everything for an official Netrunner gameplay app. Jinteki.net however seems more like direct competition in the vein of a clone (albeit without an original). There could easily be plenty of people who would play Jinteki.net without buying a single Netrunner card or an official app if one is ever released.
That said, I would gladly play via Jinteki.net in the absence of an official online alternative.
Nowhere in liking something is hate of other things implied or required, contrary to popular behavior.
I don’t prefer osx because of your stated reasons, and I don’t like the UI. I don’t like Linux because of the same reasons as you.
I like windows because it just works. Anyone who says otherwise is holding onto a long passed era of windows xp and needs to move on with life. Who can hate Microsoft when they make an application suite that practically runs every company(office), and Exchange. Go be a Domino and lotus notes admin and tell me how bad Exchange is…you won’t. Windows phone (incoming controversy) is also far better than android, and on par with iPhone. Microsoft is a great company if we can get over the Hackers: the movie early 90s hatred.
And as to osx being able to do anything windows can, that’s simply not true, particularly in the corporate world. There are workarounds, sure, but like most workarounds, they’re flawed and more trouble than they’re worth…just use Windows. I will admit this is not the fault of the OS but rather software development at large.
With regard to timing, I think Magic Online does it mostly right.
When there are multiple triggers going off at the same time, a trigger window opens and the active player can click the triggers to stack them in the order they choose. This is more of an edge case in netrunner, but it’s definitely necessary.
The more important thing about timing is the UI. There are about a jillion times you can do something in netrunner. What’s necessary is a full list of those times on the screen, (small, and with pictures), where the player can right click to set “stops” (times when the player wants the game to prompt them to do something). Making this work in the long run means that there needs to be the full range of options available, but without bothering players when they don’t care to use activated effects.
Let’s say someone is playing a deck with SMC and clot. That player, when SMC is in play, is going to want the game to stop them after basically every time the opponent does anything. This is sort of a pain in the ass. Figuring out how to make this interaction work, while at the same time making is easy for players to just ignore the corporation’s turn, is going to be key to making the entire thing work, I think.
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I believe this is one of the hardest part to get right. This is really tricky… Between the control freaks who want to be warned every single time they might use the ability and the other 90% of the players who only want to be warned when they actually would use that ability.
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Perhaps have it be a setting that can be modified during the game? With at least three values of stuff like “no automatic pausing”, “smart automatic pausing”, and “full automatic pausing”? When you want to, you can change that setting to suit your needs. Of course, for Corps, you might want to be a bit aggressive with the full automatic pausing to not give away what you have unrezzed. Perhaps.
This UI discussion won’t accomplish much honestly. There are simple ways to do these things. The aspect that will take the most time is scoping out each card and coding it. This is where I’m wondering if we, as a community, can help.
‘OCTGN GUI isn’t pretty’ does not mean ‘needs Hearthstone level animations/snappy responsivity’
Any complaints towards the OCTGN UI I think revolve around its inelegance in implementing certain (very byzantine) plays. It’s not the best platform to learn Netrunner, since many of the timing niceties require an in-depth understanding of the rulebook. That being said, as someone who is a fan of oldschool roguelikes with ASCII terrain, aesthetics & ‘accessibility’ are in the eye of the user. Personally, I think it’s a beautiful result of one person’s commitment.
Yeah, it’s not the final evolutionary form of online Netrunner, but it’s much more than a stopgap measure.
I really dig Zebadiah’s comment on Jinteki.net’s image as a clone without an original.
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I wish I was fluent in Clojure to help out. It’s already such an advanced project that it’s hard to get started.
STAND ALONE COMPLEX.
You mac users. Always just wanna pretty face.
Whereas us old timers… we lived with DOS. And liked it too. Or the apple 2e.
And let me tell you about the snow. Both ways.
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That text based online mock-up posted a few months ago looked pretty good to me.
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Yeah, I love it too.
I’ve been talking with @mtgred about this and, even though he prefers the version with the cards, he’s not against having another UI.
Once the gameplay is stable enough, I’ll give it a shot 
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