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Ladies Night Event in Seattle


#21

The notion that members of a marginalized group wanting to have an exclusive event implies that they hate the privileged group is absurd.

About all lives matter: In the US, there is currently a movement called black lives matter that protests the disproportionate frequency of black deaths at police hands and seeks corrective actions. Of course, as soon as someone suggested that black lives matter and maybe we should do something about this, a bunch of white people started shouting about how all lives matter, not just black lives. But they weren’t protesting police brutality or killings before the black lives matter movement, which reveals them to be exactly what they are - people so blinded by privilege that they reflexively lash out at anything that might exclude them or alter the status quo in a way that could reduce their advantages.

We get to have ANR nights for men all the time. It’s so common that it’s generally just called Netrunner night. But you can’t see past your privilege to let women have an equivalent experience without shitting on it by accusing them of hating men? Seriously?

I suggest you take a step or two back and rethink your assumptions.


#22

Also, @bblum or @mediohxcore, I’d love it if the debate could be forked into a separate thread, so we can keep this thread for discussion of the event itself. I’d love to hear how it goes, because I think we could learn a thing or two from this and from Quinns’ effort in London on how to expand our community.


#23

Women do not play as many games as men.
Women do not make up the majority of gamers on this planet.
Women are discriminated for being women more often than men are.

These are facts.

Reconcile your feelings to match the true statements. You will be a much happier person.

That is all


#24

Oh but if this isn’t intensely debated in the thread, people won’t be annoyed as much!


#25

Gonna second this. I was going to politely request @popeye09 Cease posting in here. I think we should try and keep these sorts of threads as a place to discuss tactics/events with the people who basically agree that trying to get more women in gaming is a worthwhile goal, and that recognize women as a marginalized group that is discriminated against in both broader society and inside gaming. I think the tendency of these threads (on the wider internet and here) to turn in sidetracked discussions of these core premises by third parties is destructive and alienating, and should be moderated against.

This should be a place for us to discuss how to organize events to get more women into netrunner, not whether we should be doing it. Sidetracking this discussion (which I’ve had in various forms many times) is harmful to the core purpose and not productive in changing minds. (Though it is important to establish for the third parties why Popeyes position is wrong).


#26

[A bit off topic]

Sometime, I’m wondering if the tendency for particularism/affirmative action in english speaking countries doesn’t come from the philosophical foundation of the common law system.

In countries with a civil law system (like in continental Europe), rules (and the way people think) tend to be color/gender blind and try to be as universalist as possible.
By extension, we (continental european I mean) don’t really have the same kind of special treatment mentality/approach on discrimination and prejudice.

I’m saying that because I feel when this kind of discussion happens on Stimhack, the people who tend to be hostile (or at least critical) on this kind of initiative are often non-american/british.


#27

I’m neither American nor British, but I actually think this is quite relevant to the problems continental Europe has with integration of immigrants.


#28

Should have said people living (for a long time :p) in UK/US. :wink:


#29

The ultimate fact is that we do not live in a system that actually guarantees equality for all people. We live in a system that has been designed to keep certain segments of the population oppressed. Until that system is gone it is completely foolish (though perhaps well-intended) to pretend like it is so easily attainable as to just say “be excellent to each other” or whatever. Sorry for my part in being all (sorta) off-topic.

As one who lives in Seattle, I am really glad this is happening. Its something that I’ve advocated for in the past, and will support in any respectful way that I can.


#30

What are you talking about ? The netrunner community or the US political and judicial system ?
Because I don’t really think there’s any kind of unwritten rule / system who try to discriminate and oppress women/poc/lgbtq/[insert your favourite minority here] in the netrunner community.


#31

Mostly talking about US both politically and culturally. But I think it easily applies to most countries. Gaming cultures are affected by this since they exist within the framework of the larger culture.


#32

One of the sad things about this sort of event is that it only works in areas where there are already enough female netrunner players to support the event. The situation where there aren’t enough female players is exactly the situation where I suspect there’d be the most discomfort.


#34

Thanks for getting my attention raja.

Good post. This is what it boils down to. The reason for events like these is not to explicitly exclude any problematic male players, but to go out of your way to make sure women feel comfortable playing the game. It’s not like the existence of women-only events threatens to keep male players from going to any events they’d go to before, so I don’t see any reason someone should find this upsetting. It’s not about what does or doesn’t offend the principles of male players who don’t ever feel threatened or unwelcome.

Discussion over. I will delete any posts that continue this argument. Anyone still unhappy should feel free to PM the mods.

I think it’s great that this event is happening, and honestly a little surprised that any netrunner scene outside the UK has enough women players to make such a thing feasible to begin with.


#36

Can we get this as a general policy for these sorts of threads? When we have a thread about things people are doing along these lines, it’s annoying to have everyone get sidetracked onto whether or not we should be doing this at all, especially since the argument is one basically everyone is familiar with at this point.


#40

Shame that so much negativity came into this thread. So far I’ve avoided this thread, because it’s a minefield, but regardless of that, I think we have to be really happy people who organise events like this are around. They essentially invest time and money into our community, take initiative to allow people to enjoy this beautiful game today, and maybe later as well. I think this is really awesome, and I know I for one hope to see little post tomorrow morning that says that the event was a success and everybody had a great time.


#42

Pragmatic outcomes are in fact the only thing we care about here, so you should take this point for granted to begin with. If you want to assume that posts about women’s issues are by default inviting debate about the feminism itself, there are other places on the internet you can go for that. It seems that everyone else here is capable of realizing this point without it having to be posted explicitly.

If you have a suggestion for how to modify the community guidelines to prevent people from making your mistake next time, the mods are all ears. Via PM please. Don’t post in this thread again.


#43

Suggestion: for the threads of events and similar things, discussion should be based on the assumption of similar goals to the creators of the event.

For example, in a thread about how to reduce luck in Netrunner, people don’t argue that luck is good. In a thread about how to create the best BWBI deck, people don’t bring up Blue Sun. In a thread about an outreach event at GenCon, people don’t talk about boycotting it. In a thread about drafting, people don’t talk about how draft events are just playing into FFG’s money-hungry evil plans. And so on and so forth.


RE: Community Guideline Suggestion
#44

in a thread about how to reduce luck in Netrunner, people don’t argue that luck is good. In a thread about how to create the best BWBI deck, people don’t bring up Blue Sun.

Just to check, you’re saying that people shouldn’t bring these things up, right? I think in these two examples, these points will definitely be seen.

I think this is an interesting suggestion as a community guideline. Certainly for cases like this.


#45

Plus the “Reply as linked Topic” button is conveniently right over there…


#46

Shame that so much negativity came into this thread. So far I’ve avoided this thread, because it’s a minefield, but regardless of that, I think we have to be really happy people who organise events like this are around. They essentially invest time and money into our community, take initiative to allow people to enjoy this beautiful game today, and maybe later as well. I think this is really awesome, and I know I for one hope to see little post tomorrow morning that says that the event was a success and everybody had a great time.

This. I don’t get why so many topic end up in useless discussions. Why don’t we accept that there is a ladies night? That people in Seattle are smart enough to figure out if a ladies night is a good thing or not. If you disagree, fine, keep it to yourself or organise a mixed night or whatever, but keep your opinion to yourself.

If you really feel a topic is not up to standard, report it. We’ll deal with it.