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Levy-less MaxX, and luck/skill/variance discussion

Stick-figure comic strips featuring humor about the Magic: The Gathering collectible card game.

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Becouse on octgn there is a “true” random shuffle, when in real life most of us isn’t able to do a real random shuffle, most of the cards stay togheter becouse of the weird shamanic shuffle most of us do, when you really need 7 riffle shuffle to get a “true” random shuffle.

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This thread is horribly off topic =(

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Yeah I’m just waiting for Dan to split it TBH

MaxX doesn’t care though cause ya know MaxX Reasons

Even in chess and Go there are unknown factors / luck (thought much less… direct? than netrunner). Basically any game with a human component involves luck.

That being said, I think good plays make good luck. Good players notice lucky opportunities when presented with them, and can maximally take advantage of them. Bad players have the same amount of lucky opportunities, they just let them pass by.

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It may not happen that often but I will remember every game it does… We will always remember the games we got “screwed” over the games we “lucksacked” into winning. I think this psychology reveals to a small degree of why some get burnt out on the game.

You have to focus on remembering the good with the bad or you shouldn’t play card games… there will always be randomness

It turns out you need something closer to 10 or 12 shuffles if you do the math and pick a reasonable definition for what it means to approximate a truly random shuffle.

I started playtesting levyless MaXx, after studying how many cards levy got me and determining that perhaps 0 levy would work. Now then Cutting levy has the following consquences.

  1. Deck size becomes a resource worth looking into more cards is better but not going overboard
  2. we still need to maintain quantities of the various cards intact.
  3. Certain cards that are often dead/very weak (Same old thing/Deja Vu) get cut from the deck.
  4. We have 3 extra influence.

The reason I’m trying 0 levy builds, was after studying the typical levy, I noticed that I would shuffle in anywhere from 20-30 cards each levy, but that I would only use 10-25 of those cards, Now then I would not go to 70 cards in the deck, but I wondered “How BAD is adding cards anyway?” It clearly is a significant cost, you are adding the worst card in your deck and diluting your deck but by how much and how painful? What I noticed was that as long as we only put in cards I will call cards that are good and maintain certain ratios, there is little issue with adding cards. The ratios to maintain are as follows
1/15 cards in the deck should tutor for ICEbreakers (and probably more)
~40% of the deck should be econ, good econ not armitage codebusting crap, This ended up being the Wall that prevented further expansion, thought the next limit also would have been hit soon.
1/20 of each ICEbreaker type and multiaccess card is needed, we would have run into this limit if there were 1 more econ card printed

Every card played must be good on its own.

The answer for now in terms of expansion limit is 60, though 65 might be next assuming we get 1 more good econ card for anarch (+1 retrival run +2 econ +2 Knifed) and anything beyond 65 should just play levy.

I playtested this deck quite a bit its preformance has been admirable (15-2) The secret is that with 60 cards, and an aggressive Maxx build, every game comes down to speed. In a typical levy build, you will have a power arch that is really strong right up until you levy, then levying costs you a lot of resources, then you recover your power arch. This deck’s power arch is a strong steady power until a sudden massive drop right around turn 18 where the deck ran out and now your remaining hand did as well.
I’m kinda burned out on netrunner, after playing a bunch with @mendax and having 0 interesting games.
This deck is strong, but it should be played as fast as humanly possible, just blitz blitz blitz and win ASAP, like mono red burn.
###[Red Deck Wins][1] (60 cards)

  • [MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock][2]

Event (27)

  • 3 [Day Job][3]
  • 3 [Dirty Laundry][4]
  • 3 [Inject][5]
  • 2 [Lucky Find][6] ••••
  • 3 [Queen’s Gambit][7]
  • 2 [Retrieval Run][8]
  • 2 [Spooned][9]
  • 3 [Stimhack][10]
  • 3 [Sure Gamble][11]
  • 3 [Wanton Destruction][12]

Hardware (6)

  • 3 [Clone Chip][13] ••••• •
  • 3 [Grimoire][14]

Resource (7)

  • 3 [Daily Casts][15]
  • 3 [Liberated Account][16]
  • 1 [Utopia Shard][17] •

Icebreaker (9)

  • 3 [Corroder][18]
  • 3 [Mimic][19]
  • 1 [Yog.0][20]
  • 2 [ZU.13 Key Master][21] ••••

Program (11)

  • 2 [D4v1d][22]
  • 3 [Datasucker][23]
  • 3 [Medium][24]
  • 3 [Parasite][25]

Built with [http://netrunner.meteor.com/][26]
[1]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/X4HRnJoexCraHBSHH
[2]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/maxx-maximum-punk-rock-order-and-chaos
[3]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/day-job-order-and-chaos
[4]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/dirty-laundry-creation-and-control
[5]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/inject-up-and-over
[6]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/lucky-find-double-time
[7]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/queens-gambit-double-time
[8]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/retrieval-run-future-proof
[9]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/spooned-order-and-chaos
[10]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/stimhack-core
[11]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/sure-gamble-core
[12]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/wanton-destruction-order-and-chaos
[13]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/clone-chip-creation-and-control
[14]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/grimoire-core
[15]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/daily-casts-creation-and-control
[16]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/liberated-account-trace-amount
[17]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/utopia-shard-all-that-remains
[18]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/corroder-core
[19]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/mimic-core
[20]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/yog-0-core
[21]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/zu-13-key-master-what-lies-ahead
[22]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/d4v1d-the-spaces-between
[23]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/datasucker-core
[24]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/medium-core
[25]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/parasite-core
[26]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/X4HRnJoexCraHBSHH

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Summoning @anon34370798

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Noooooo, why would you do this to us?

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You should maybe make a new thread called “Too many cards Maxx”

But seriously, that deck looks somewhat reasonable. I don’t know if it has the RP matchup regass does, though. Having to levy isn’t a very big deal there; you’re totally fine playing the long game and $5 to refresh your hand isn’t the worst thing in the world, not considering it will actually draw you about 12 cards. I almost always go to 0 card post-levy against RP, so it’s actually netting you a good deal extra over 60. Shooting for early aggression against RP can easily come up short.

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I feel that not playing Déjà-Vu is a big mistake with all those parasites.
Also, Imp is great. Like REALLY REALLY great.

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Holy shit there’s no Imp.

Captain get your shit together

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Remove 1 LF, Utopia and 1 medium.
Add Levy, 2 imp. Here you go.(imp is also a pseudo-multi-access)

Here you go \o.

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Ans now you have a 60 cards deck that play levy o//

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Personally, I like the Levy a lot because you don’t actually need to play it in many matchups, but the matchups where you do want to play it its the best card in the deck. Against Fast Advance and Rush, you can play the aggro game and lean on Kati and Medium to give you the last push, and against Glacier you can Levy and last until the functional end of the game.

Going to 60 seems like it would put you in a position where you’d be golden in the fast matchups but give up a lot for the slow ones.

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I tried a lot of these (still playing a 77 no levy deck since O&C day 1). Rates are 21 wins out of 33 games, against decks & players of various level, so it’s a little less than 2/3 (it was very valid deck in O&C, now I face lots of problems with Sansan#1). I think these rates are very honest vs my usual results. That’s a great learn-to-aggro-or-die deck. :wink:
I’d say losses are 40% because I’m a player making stupid moves, 40% because of lost consistency, 20% because “hey run this, BLAM gg” (like Gov. Takeover / Punitive Counterstrike, what you gonna do, say hi ?).

Kati Jones issues
The biggest problem I see is no Kati Jones because, as you noticed, death is behond your turn 18.
With Kati Jones, you can survive. Sort of.

Inject vs IHW
IHW all the way.

Reason is Inject is not an agressive card, it’s a 2-3-4 clic card, or an Easy Mark creating problems. I’ve had worse is a rush card and have a lot of value against each corp (but plays different vs each). In fact, Inject slows you.

IHW is drawing set multiple of 3. Inject draws set 4 so it messes with your drawing clics count to remind.
(sidenote : no, you DON’T want to count remaining cards in stack in the middle of the game + irl you’re not playing with octgn + you don’t want to show where the panic is + you don’t want the corp player to actually have a brb moment to think. You’re playing with all of this too. You’re playing aggro, not “wait I’ll inject stuff and play this then run”.
No : ideally some turns would be Clic 1 run, 2 run, 3 run, 4 run or something more or less similar to this, playing one card instead of running in those clics, and that’s not necesserally clic 4.).

With no drawing considerations, 59 - 5 (opening hand) is a multiple of 3 (guess which one, 18, hey, funny that’s your death turn ;)), 62 too (death turn is 19).
60 is 18.333, your death turn is 1 card staying in the stack @ turn 18 if you played no injects.

Each time you’ ll put +3 cards for deck size, you’ll get a turn.
I choosed to set the death turn to 24 (24x3 = 72, + 5 = 77) and sometimes draw if I see the corp is too quick for the deck (vs FA for exemple).
Same thing, each time you draw 3 cards you’ll go toward death -1 turn.

So, at 59 cards, first Inject you play will make your death turn @ 17, second @16, third @15 (minus 1.33 each, so minus 2 for the first. At 60 though, you’re -1/-2/-1, this is the second Inject that makes you -2.

61 is -1/-1/-2 if you want better control. Since your third Inject migth never see the ligth, you’d better go for …46/49/52/55/58/61/64/67/70… for the number of cards for any no drawing MaxX with Inject.

IHW remove 1 turn each (gives more control) => Inject is sort of anti-tempo to me.

I think you should remove those Injects for I’ve had worse and go 59 or 62 too. Or keep those Injects and go for 61. But IHW acheive a lot more (incl. being a tin hat to Scorched Earth, a Jinteki face checking card, a Diesel vs some FA decks, etc). Inject is, well, just some draw card.

So my pref is IHW. If your pref is Inject, go 61. This little +1 may sound stupid but it actually gives you 1 or 2 more clic at death turns.

Various things left to be said
I also would not rely on QG and LF are lost inf in my book (in that particular no larla-tower situation I mean) but that’s your choice. QG are dangerous vs Blue Sun & Tenin.

As people said, Imp.
I’d add Djinn (+1 AI of your choice x3) if you go in seventies. If I draw Djinn & Kati soon, the corp dies.

I agree with people here though, “no future” tower MaxX “archetypes” (cough not yet one cough) should have a thread on their own, more testers and less talkers : unless people try those, you’ll face a bunch of Jon Snows.

Shouldn’t the logical deck size for MaxX be 3*45 = 135? :smile:

@Therad

But if that was serious, how many games you played lasted 45 turns ?