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Levy-less MaxX, and luck/skill/variance discussion


#1

forgetting imp is my specialty I also forgot it in val. here’s an attempt at a small increase of cards to 62, after this we hit the hard limit of not playing a good econ package. sure when you actually draw the card levy AR lab acess it is merely bad, but Same old thing>levy is a fucking disaster. It took me a while to make this post because testing matchups takes a long time when playtest partners don’t have infinite free time. Wanton is MUCH better than legwork VS RP, since Wanton on a TFP gives 3 distinct chances to run on Archives after you run on their HQ. Imp is pretty scary as well vs RP, but not as scary as wanton+Utopia shard.
The theoretical death turn of this deck (when it stops drawing) is 17 but the actual death turn (when it stops being good) is turn 20, lots of the cards in the deck are very click intensive, which means I have sustainability past the point where I stop drawing cards. I want to test a version later with Knifed AND spooned, just for maxX ice destruction (borrowing from recent tournament result of having low econ MAXX with ICE destruction doing well)

Anyway here’s the next version (literally just added 2 imp and cut nothing, it works fine for now)

###[Red Deck Wins][1] (62 cards)

  • [MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock][2]

Event (27)

  • 3 [Day Job][3]
  • 3 [Dirty Laundry][4]
  • 3 [Inject][5]
  • 2 [Lucky Find][6] ••••
  • 3 [Queen’s Gambit][7]
  • 2 [Retrieval Run][8]
  • 2 [Spooned][9]
  • 3 [Stimhack][10]
  • 3 [Sure Gamble][11]
  • 3 [Wanton Destruction][12]

Hardware (6)

  • 3 [Clone Chip][13] ••••• •
  • 3 [Grimoire][14]

Resource (7)

  • 3 [Daily Casts][15]
  • 3 [Liberated Account][16]
  • 1 [Utopia Shard][17] •

Icebreaker (9)

  • 3 [Corroder][18]
  • 3 [Mimic][19]
  • 1 [Yog.0][20]
  • 2 [ZU.13 Key Master][21] ••••

Program (13)

  • 2 [D4v1d][22]
  • 3 [Datasucker][23]
  • 2 [Imp][24]
  • 3 [Medium][25]
  • 3 [Parasite][26]

Built with [http://netrunner.meteor.com/][27]
[1]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/X4HRnJoexCraHBSHH
[2]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/maxx-maximum-punk-rock-order-and-chaos
[3]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/day-job-order-and-chaos
[4]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/dirty-laundry-creation-and-control
[5]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/inject-up-and-over
[6]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/lucky-find-double-time
[7]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/queens-gambit-double-time
[8]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/retrieval-run-future-proof
[9]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/spooned-order-and-chaos
[10]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/stimhack-core
[11]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/sure-gamble-core
[12]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/wanton-destruction-order-and-chaos
[13]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/clone-chip-creation-and-control
[14]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/grimoire-core
[15]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/daily-casts-creation-and-control
[16]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/liberated-account-trace-amount
[17]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/utopia-shard-all-that-remains
[18]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/corroder-core
[19]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/mimic-core
[20]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/yog-0-core
[21]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/zu-13-key-master-what-lies-ahead
[22]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/d4v1d-the-spaces-between
[23]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/datasucker-core
[24]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/imp-what-lies-ahead
[25]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/medium-core
[26]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/parasite-core
[27]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/X4HRnJoexCraHBSHH

RP is weird, Stimhack/Parasite/Spooned are very strong vs RP, but forked isn’t (only really kills eli) The injects/Liberated account provide so much econ that Stealing NAPD isn’t much of a chore, Stimhack makes seeing R&D TFP less problematic because you can stimhack back into the TFP, I’ve been doing well vs RP but testing the matchup isn’t always easy, and besides, this is probably going to be one of my last posts on a netrunner forum in general, I’ve been pretty burnt out of the game recently, I could make a post as to why but that’s for another day, but generally I will say

  1. People SUCK at netrunner hardcore, and it is really really easy to learn how to be good if you actually think about your lines.

  2. Netrunner once you stop sucking is 90% random accesses deciding who wins and loses, with very little room for interesting play.

  3. Netrunner’s resource system is really basic (which is fine) but often leaves you with a series of poor choices each turn. The game really punishes you for trying to squeeze out a win, and

  4. no matter how hard I try to say it isn’t “the deck” is still far and away the best deck in the format in every format. Account siphon is so degenerate when combined with all the criminal econ cards, Siphon’s real huge strength is how much of a forcing move it is, so many people say 'I’ll just go broke" bitch when you go broke you just handed me a ticket that said “I’m helpless exploit me however you please” Also people vastly overrate their ability to go broke vs account siphon. Combine that with OP breakers and OP econ you just can’t win until double time where corp got OP tools to fight OP tools.

  5. Netrunner players as a whole vastly overrate “skill” and vastly overrate their edges over other players, I want to make a bank of captain with similar rules to bank of timex (you can buy shares of yourself winning a given event) Once you learn how to exploit various things the game really just degenerats into matchups and coinflips

  6. netrunner has terrible wasted design space, The top ID’s (Maxx andy Kate, ETF RP NEH and Blue sun) are all simply the most powerful economic identity the faction has to offer, BS/RP use their OP combo’s with the ID while ETF/NEH are a combo with netrunner.


Going Against the Grain: Reg-Ass Maxx
Going Against the Grain: Reg-Ass Maxx
#2

This just in guys skill means nothing and we all suck. Let’s close up shop we’re done here


#3

Congratulation ! We found that you’re better than most netrunner players and just won at least 1.21 internets here !

In all seriousness, It’s totally understandable that you got burnt out by Netrunner but do you really need to be that agressive against people who still enjoy the game ?

:confused:


#4

I feel like I can say the same thing for every card game I’ve ever played. If you’re smart and you think about it forever, figuring out the best thing to do usually isn’t that hard! Well yeah, but in actual gameplay, there are hundreds of decisions, and making the correct choice every time is next to impossible. I’ve seen you fuck up a whole lot. In fact, I’ve seen literally every player I know commit serious errors and lose games as a result.

I’ve also seen two great players disagree entirely on how to play the same game from the same position, in situations where there is no one correct way to do things, but where it certainly makes a big difference.

I think it’s safe to say a lot of people could stand to improve at Netrunner, but to say that playing it well is “really really easy” is kind of ridiculous.


#5

while I basically agree with all your points, I think it would have been more appropriate to start a new thread, although admittedly you say you’re done here for a time.

also this. i love hearing good players disagree, especially you and @bblum (:


#6

Name your price and bettign spread an I challenge you to a D-D-D duel


#7

:smile:

Suffice it to say that we’ve played before and I’ve bet on myself before. It’s not like it will prove one way or the other whether the game is hard. I’m not saying you’re not a good player, I’m just saying that everyone makes mistakes because the game isn’t easy.


#9

Isn’t that kind of his point, though? If different people all have logical and sound reasons to do different stuff at a point in the game, then could you not argue that it’s luck that determines the actual correct line of play?

I still love the game, but I do get where he’s coming from. Although my skill level is nowhere near that of most of you here.


#10

If you go down that line of reasoning, no game ever created is actually a good game. Either there’s only one correct solution, which means the game can be “solved” and is junk, or there’s more than one, in which case it’s all down to luck and and the game is junk!

For Netrunner I’d argue that none of the two applies, as there can be multiple correct lines, and the best one is determined by hidden information, not luck.


#11

I admit I am playing devil’s advocat a bit here.

I actually do agree with you that hidden information definitely keeps a game interesting and non-solvable. Sirlin has a great article about the topic as well: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/solvability


#12

Well, random acces are not really luck based (except in the early game).

What really pushed luck too far is, IMO, the psi- mechanic. losing a game to 3 or 4 wrong guess is soooo frustrating,


#13

One of the things game with randomness get a lot of flak for in general is, well, being random.

However, randomness in these games tends to produces unique situations that you cannot have prepared to know ahead of time. If you play the same decks over and over again, you’re still going to run into on the runner’s first turn having different ice on R&D/HQ, different credit totals for the corp, etc with a different set of tools in your hand. On the runner’s first turn, they’ll generally have multiple correct lines (facecheck, econ up, a mix of the two). This diverges out pretty rapidly. Its hard to make a game that constantly presents you with situations you haven’t seen before that doesn’t have randomness in it.

Sure, you have general principles that you can apply to similar situations, but you’re always being presented with unique situations, often with multiple plausible lines of play. Which is another way netrunner is good. Most card games your options are limited to cards in hand, where as in netrunner you always have the option of drawing for more options, or making non-card plays. Netrunner always gives both players a good deal of meaningful choice.


#14

Your post is somehow like a Zen koan where it makes sense and is total nonsense at the same time. You should write it like this:

A novice Runner once came to Edmund, and asked “how can I stop sucking hardcore at Netrunner”? Edmund replied without hesitation:

it is really really easy to learn how to be good if you actually think about your lines.

At that moment, the novice was enlightened.


#15

you made my day!!


#16

The thing about Netrunner (and all games with RNG) is that you have to move away from linking winning with being good. In this game, you can take optimal lines and still lose. A hard thing for me is to not get discouraged when I lose (who am I kidding, I still get discouraged every time). Sometimes you’re just not going to win, even if you play well. There are certainly many suboptimal ANR players, but there are also lots of good players that lose often, especially when they play other good players.


#17

I’m solidified as a fan now.


#18

On an individual game level, sure. But you don’t end consistently in top4/8 in every tournament / league you play if you aren’t good.
Being good isn’t linked on individual win but on how consistent you are during a reasonably long period of time.


#19

I will point to the old adage:

If you want to avoid luck, play chess.


#20

I completely disagree that random chance in ANR means it is devoid of skill. Deck building and calculating probability to mitigate that randomness is part of the skill, and so is reacting to it. However, just like any other game with random elements, you’re still going to have freak situations where you lose or win out of nowhere just because. Either accept that or move on, but please don’t insinuate we’re all plebs for sticking with it. :wink:

That all said, Psi games are fucking bullshit. I’m with nuTella on that.


#21

I’d rather lose on a psi game where I get to choose my bid than lose on an RND access that I statistically should win on.