Meta Diversity: 2014 Worlds vs. 2015 ChiLo City Grudge Match

Netrunner General
41
  • max 4x 3/2 agendas (3x astro / 1x beal for exemple) for 49 card decks
  • max 5x 3/2 agendas (3x astro / 2x beal for exemple) for 54 card decks
  • …
  • max 6x 3/2 agendas (3x astro / 3x beal for exemple) for 64 card decks
    …

“Max 1 agenda of its kind per full 10 cards in the deck”.

  • lots of new 3/2.

End of problem.

  • NBN wouldn’t be stuck with Astro (stuck with the FA plan, and could go in T&B, or tax plan with more efficience if there were trace assist 3/2 agendas or tax assist 3/2 agendas).
  • Jinteki would see no real changes.
  • Weyland would be boosted a little.
  • HB changes too (mostly the FA plan).
  • No other inf costing silverbullet in the runner deck on top of plascrete. It helps keeping the runner focusing on the attack side of the game.
  • No need to wait 4 year with Beal rotation to see a new 3/2 in NBN.
  • …

This would solve so many problems.

42

That’s the dumbest answer i’ve ever read on this topic. Solving the dominance of Astrobiotic by making the agenda distribution totally fucked up in EVERY CORP DECKS.
It’s just plain wrong.

10 Likes
43

Say it’s the first time you read that from me and I’d lol, Calimsha.
Got at least 3 walls of text about this on the same thread on r4g but you never replied to it.

Explain why to you, I’m dumb instead of using “yeah err dumb !” arguments.

Distribution is a big deal only if you consider building with blank agendas to begin with. If you consider synergising your distribution with your deck, it’s actually really not that “dumb”.

I’m quite surprised by the difference of treatment from you here and on r4g tbh. I’m on your ignore list there, rigth ?

1 Like
44

Like Wontons and AmpedUp ? :smiley:

45

  1. That is not easily enforceable, and doesn’t make sense from an outside perspective. One of the major reasons against limiting cards is that it scares away newer players, because you have to learn a new set of rules or you might show up with an illegal deck. This is also why the netrunner staff has not errata’d anything.

  2. It doesn’t fix the “issue”. People are butthurt because of the astro > astro > astro > BN check-out lane that NEH makes, this just makes it even higher variance

  3. It’s convoluted as hell. What qualifies as an agenda of “its kind?” same scoring ratio? this would kill off all 5/3 decks, does medical breakthrough count as a 4/2 or a 3/2? why can’t I run 10 4/2s?

  4. You are trying to put an arbitrary global limit on decks to fix a balance issue that is arguably not that big of a deal and will be (over)corrected with the release of clot

Just having read your posts, you seem to post a lot with little to no testing to back it up, and if I was a moderator I would tell you to lurk more.

Yeah, although we have like 2-3 viable archetypes per corp, so I’d like to see a few more for runners

3 Likes
46

Snow-jax said it will come with the first datapack of The Sansan cycle.
That said, you just need 2 Cyberdex Virus Suite in your NEH deck to counter it wink

That’s two more deck slots NBN has to use. I’d much rather them have to put in Cyberdex than those 2x Daily Business Shows.

1 Like
47

I think Switchblade is a good starting point for what Runners need. Small card combinations that allow the Runner to cheat the system. But not quite like Datasucker or Security Testing that are “combos” that work with basically anything.

Runner options should be simple rig, that’s cost efficient to set-up, but gets inefficient later or a complex rig that takes time, but runs very efficiently.

48

Both Crims and shapers have 2-3 viable archetype atm. Anarch not so much but I expect the big box to shake it up a little bit :slight_smile:

As for myself, I stopped being butthurt on the astrotrain when I understood the limitation and the weakness of those decks and then learnt how to exploit it.

49

TEACH US THE SECRETS, MIGHTY CALIMSHA, MASTER OF NBN AND LORD OF THE RUNNERS.

11 Likes
50

Access a lot of cards really fast. RDI is too slow due to cost and them being able to draw through it for free, 2 RDIs start to make it profitable, but that’s really expensive.

51

I agree on your 1, that’s not an easy rule.

On your 2, it removes 2 beal, easing the end of game for the runner (because Beal get replaced by other cards, either more 2/1 or 3/1 agendas → higher steal risks or 1x 5/3 + 1x2/1, with 1x5/3 that’s more botch % for the corp).

Instead of relying on 5 1 or 2 pointers, they rely on 1 pointer with more agendas in the deck or 2 pointers but 4/2 so there they should work their exit.

The nerf is sligth but the boost on other gameplans is significant if those new dedicated 3/2 could exist. So, about “Meta diversity” that actually sounds very on-topic to me.

Distributions in 49 could be with lots of 3/1, lots of 2/1 to help but that would make so many agendas in the deck so the cost would be runners random acces have higher % of stealing.

About this 3, same scoring ratio yes. These are risk/rewards ratio.

You couldn’t run 10x 4/2 because you wouldn’t run this today.
You and me stuff like anybody our decks with the more 3/2 we find then put 4/2 (but in Jinteki decks where Braintrust integration have to be well though because of its suckyness).

So imho no big deal for 4/2.

The “5/3 plan” is also a problem (for me, and I 100% understand that may be personal) and this aims to solve it too.

Medicals are 4/2. I’m actually testing this on Jinteki decks and there’s no real problems about this . You just can’t play NAPD with Nisei, that is all. Medicals + Braintrust + Philotic + 2 5/3 doesn’t make an advantage over NBN FA or HB FA.

(and the fancy PE 1 pointer deck gets illegality but nobody plays this in competition rigth ?).

This is all sideeffects you have for Jinteki, that’s why I said this is untouched.

I highly disagrees with silverbulleting the runner with a inf costing card like clot would be.

Reason #1 is the runner is supposed to be the attacker not the defender.

So why forcing him to play with more defence cards tbh.

They are useless cards against some decks, simplyfying the game interactions to a rock-paper-cisor game. An attacker is supposed to attack.

Maybe that is a personal but that were my choices on this.

Hey I’m not FFG guys :smile:
So no worry hey but the more I think of this, the more I’d do this (4-6 month I think of this, turning the idea in all ways around) so if the problem is sourcing or developing that, no problem.

Well how can I test this, designing some new 3/2 and play with you ? No problem, would love this :slight_smile:

Now I won’t enforce my views on this. These are mine, I don’t seek recognition. Just sharing nothing else.

52

Setup a minimal rig as fast as possible and access a lot of cards really fast, both on HQ early on (for instance when the corp start to float around 6-8 creds and have his central protected) and then on the R&D.
Indexing, Makers Eye, Medium are all good on that purpose especially since fast track ‘reset’ the card you access and it’s a key component on fastrobiotic. As SamRS said, RDI is unefficient against Astrobiotic. My own win ratio skyrocketed when I started to play Medium and the shaper event package instead of RDI against NEH.

Oh and Utopia Shard is awesome if you’re able to put it on board fast enough. So far, only doable in shaper since they have the best power-draw mecanism in-faction but I suspect anarch to be able to do the same after O&C.

1 Like
53

Even now, Utopia Shard, Deja Vu, Utopia Shard is a nice play. So I can’t wait for Wanton Destruction. It should really put the brakes on NEH.

54

I definitely agree and am aware of what you’re saying. Medium is an amazing card that I’ve been saying is borderline broken since Core. Medium is easily the best option for R&D multiaccess especially as your only virus. That may change with O&C but we’ll have to see. I actually won a 22 person store champ last year with Andy/Blackguard which I attributed mostly to my inclusion of 2x Medium.

RDI may be slow, but accessing 2 cards every R&D run is better than accessing 3 cards 2 times. I understand the burst reduction in credits is the real problem, but I’d put a single R&D interface against makers eye because not all games end turn 5 due to astrotrain.

Indexing is its own beast, and is a great call all around except that you would be forced to run facedown remotes in NBN to find jackson first. That’s time and money you should be spending accessing cards. The problem with this game is that there isn’t a way to look at a card and assign a true value because game state dictates value. Security Testing is 10/10 in a vacuum, but basically is blanked in the Blue Sun match. You get my point.

I gained respect for Utopia Shard at ChiLo when David Kempe used it as a legwork basically and picked up 2 agendas for free out of archives. This card could slot into a lot of decks I run that have that last “1” influence floating around.

Now tell me how that deck does against RP or Blue Sun: what sacrifices to efficiency are being made for speed?

1 Like
55

[quote=“anon34370798, post:51, topic:2871”]
Trying to defend this awful rule[/quote]

This is a significant nerf to:
Jinteki RP (napd/nisei)
Jinteki PE (Gila/HoK/Chronos)
All Punitive Counterstrike decks (Deadcoats and Weyland Glacier)
HB FA
NBN FA
NBN Kill (DRT and Scorch)

On the premise of “maybe they’ll print more 3/2s” 3/2s are no longer printed because the easy to score them means they have to functionally be blank points.

And it doesn’t fix the issue, they usually get the last agenda with a fast track.

Runner is not “the attacker”. Going out and killing the runner is a design decision explicitly included in the game. What you’re complaining about is called “reading the metagame” and is entirely healthy for a competitive game. It’s usually done better (clot is just a brute force answer and something to knock agenda counters off agendas may have been a better solution), but it’s already printed, so you’re trying to enforce an arbitrary rule on a non-problem.

No, I mean look at all the decks your arbitrary rule would destroy instead of trying to brew custom cards. Rules changes are there to fix an issue in the current cardpool, later printings are separate entirely. Continuation of this discussion is just going to drag everything off topic so I’m just going to ignore it.

3 Likes
56

Well, I can’t say for other people but my kate deck fared really well against RP and Blue Sun during the stimhack league. In fact, for the first two weeks, I almost never ran against a Fastrobiotic even if my deck was at first fine-tuned against this matchup. Usually, parasite makes me win against RP and Stimhack against Blue Sun.

And I don’t think you’ll find more efficient breaker than a suite with Mimic / CyCy and Lady :wink:

(but then, you evaluated Lady as a 5/10 in your set review,right ?)

3 Likes
57

Still perusing the topic as a whole before I put in my two cents, but I thought I would go ahead and point out… I made a few significant updates to the original post.

I missed a row in the formula I made for my spreadsheet when compiling these, so all of the identities on each side for both events were off by a few percentage points here and there. They have been corrected and the original post now accurately reflects those percentages.

I added a note with how many players were at each event (238 for Worlds, 61 for ChiLo). If anyone has this type of play data for another tournament in the 50-80 player range, I’d be willing to throw those up for comparison as well. One of the reasons I went after the Worlds data set was because it was readily available to me. :slight_smile: I also added the actual player/deck count in parenthesis throughout the post to provide some context to those percentage points.

And, for the visual folks, a couple pie charts for the faction breakdown - still working on something for identities. Let me know if any other questions come up about the data.

58

Can you just write a book and then post it all when you’re done?

5 Likes
59

The data from ChiLo is meaningless. There was an arbitrary restriction in place that does not exist in standard Netrunner tournament play. Bias was already in place before the “experiment” was performed. The result is exactly what they wanted to occur: NBN FA was significantly reduced as a threat. They engineered the tournament to get the result they wanted. Therefore, the data is without value.

Also, as @Badeesh and others have noted, by eliminating NBN FA as a significant challenge that must be overcome, then that’s one less thing you have to take into consideration in your experience . You reduce diversity, which runs counter to the claims of those who want “more diversity.”

People fail to realize that when you ban or restrict something that becomes a “problem”, the players and the meta in general will then try to identify a new “best” strategy for playing the game. This process is often referred to as “First Order Optimal Strategy.” Research it, if you’ve never heard of it - it’s a fascinating psychology topic.

When this occurs, all that happens is that something else becomes the new primary “problem.” If it’s not NBN FA, it becomes PE net damage. If it’s not net damage, then it’s Argus meat damage decks. If not that, then it’s “click deprivation” decks.

Then people will want the new problem taken care of, and the meta will degenerate further until eventually everything is nerfed into uselessness. Then the game is horrible, and it dies.

Is this really what players want? No, but that’s usually the end result of constant banning and “hotfixes.”

As a side note, from a design perspective, I find it quite droll that Damon rather publicly said in his GenCon interview that players rely too much on cheap ETR ice and that he hated making “silver bullet” cards, and yet in the past few releases FFG has released several cheap, effective ETRs and have “silver bullets” for FA forthcoming.

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60

I don’t know if that last part in parenthesis was supposed to be a burn, but “Ouch”. I had to look back, but I rated it a 6. At least locally, based on experiential data, I would say that is an accurate rating based on my rating system. It’s good, but it’s not Corroder.

You should send me your decklist so I can take a look. I was running a very, very similar deck (assuming I know what you’re doing) and sentries were the weak spot. Mimic doesn’t really make me feel warm and fuzzy outside of the NBN matchup. What’s the plan for big(ger) sentries?

Cyber Cypher is fast and efficient, but with your scavenges stretching out it really increases the value of your opponents code gate. If I were playing any deck with code gates as soon as you played CyCy I would be scattering those codegates around.

The ICEbreaker suite is almost specifically targeting NBN. Lady looks great against Eli and wraparound. Lady looks terrible against Curtain Wall, Hive and Next Silver, and ok to good gainst the rest of the barriers (but what other barriers are being played right now?).

1 Like