MNGA - Rolling Ban-List Discussion

Netrunner General
101

Bubba: that downside is a hell of a lot less than paying three credits, and I’d remind you that Mad Dash has “Make a run” built in, so it’ll save you a click as well. Also, it does clear a current - you’re stealing an agenda!

I remember getting into an argument about this in beyoken’s video comments when CTM came out. To paraphrase he said in the video that “you have two alternatives, trashing every asset the corp plays until they run out or steal agendas to win the game”. I challenged someone to find a video where the latter was a successful line of play without being on 5 agenda points before the end of the early game. It used to be the case that leaving up assets for the rest of a game was a genuine consideration, PAD Campaigns and Public Support and Sundew, all of those cards are plausible for that. Now with Team Sponsorship and Political Assets and Jeeves and yes, Sandburg, I feel like that decision is out of your hands and the answer is just yes, trash ASAP.

But hey, maybe I’m an old fogey and taking that decision out of the runner hands is actually really fun. I don’t think that makes all of these cards bannable, but since this thread is about that yearning for the good old days then I guess I’ll do some yearning.

Stephen: I think this banlist is still using the errata that Astro is limited to 1 per deck (and others). Also, I would like to direct you to the short lived Sync deck that used EoI and News Team and QPM that tried to squeeze out the agenda points left in the deck and let the runner do the scoring. Ultimately, that’s why I think EoI has value where others have railed against it. Then there’s Psychographics, which you could count as FA but feels quite different.

102

If you ban HHN, then it’s not nearly as powerful as the tag punishment faction, so you should make it the FA faction again. Otherwise NBN lacks a core focus.

103

I dunno, you started out with a condescending tone. This makes me think you were just trying to bait them rather than engage in some sort of meaningful discussion.

I think an argument about whether bans should ever be considered is unnecessary. We know if they printed a 0 cost operation that said “the runner is flatlined,” then we’d need a ban. This thread is mostly about whether any cards in the card pool need banned, and which cards those should be.

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104

He’s French. :stuck_out_tongue:

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105

Which is why BOOM! was printed immediately afterwards, for less influence than Scorched Earth.

Basically we traded Butchershop’s Meat+FA plan for HHN/CtM’s Meat+EoI plan. I’m not really sure that’s a positive…

I do think that a tagstorm type of deck existing is Fine for the meta, it’s just hard to envision why this deck would exist when it’s simpler and easier to threaten a flatline while you’re throwing tags at them.

Thank god HHN is Terminal. 3 tags instead of 4 would’ve also made it vastly more fair.

106

@RubbishyUsername I think you are overly focused on the ‘best case’ use for these cards.

Mad Dash does nothing to clear a current, if you can steal an agenda, you don’t need any help to clear a current. If you are in a situation where you cannot steal an agenda, FTE does remove a current.

Of course, Mad Dash can synergize with Interdiction to block a Jackson (or any asset/upgrade) from shuffling HQ between an Indexing run and the Mad Dash run. The click compression is also nice.

Overall the two cards are very similar and if you are focused only on situations where ‘I can 100% steal an agenda’ then Mad Dash is better. However there are many other situations where Mad Dash is not a sure thing in which FTE offers additional utility.

107

Huh? The only CtM deck that runs both HHN and Boom! is the Door to Door CtM deck that steals all your credits with Aryabhata, and that deck is less than 10% of the CtMs you see. All other kill decks use 24/7 or Midseasons to tag the runner, because you can’t rely on someone floating the HHN tags and waiting for you to Boom! them. HHN is primarily used by corps to attack the runners board state and open scoring windows, not to kill them.

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108

Yeah, but it’s also one of the only CTM’s that doesn’t necessarily run Sensies, too. So if we’re talking about banning Sensie’s, what other proven archetype of CtM are you exactly expecting to come to the forefront? (Searching on NRDB, about 50-60% of then did run Sensie’s, but there were still some that didn’t. @rojazu 's got a BOOM! HHN deck that runs Sensies, but doesn’t run Door to Door. With Sensie banned that’d probably become DBS…?)

The actual problem is that encouraging a tagstorm style, where you try to bury the runner in tags, so that they hold tags over and eventually go tagme, is that it’s way easier to just kill the Runner when they finally give in, instead of shouting ‘YES! I FINALLY GOT THEM TO HOLD TAGS’ and then… um. EoI? Closed Accounts? Psychographics? Those are powerful moves, but BOOM! ends the game right there, and the others give you a massive advantage, but the game goeson. (Sure, you’re still heavily favored to win, but it doesn’t, just, END.) It’s been a problem since the creation of the game, that because Scorched Earth was a binary ‘Are they tagged?’, that made Runners extremely unwilling to float any tags whatsoever. Increasing the problem by adding BOOM! is not how you promote Tagstorm.

If it had just been Scorch, then there’s a possibility that Runners would play their Plascrete/Hoppers and stay at 5 cards to avoid death, but BOOM! denies the Sports Hopper avenue and requires that you run Plascretes to avoid death at the hands of BOOM! if you’re holding tags. (Or keep the Corp poor.)

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109

Rojazu’s deck works because:

  1. Nobody expects CtM to play Boom! He says that all the runners threw away plascrete against him.
  2. Sensie allows him to find the 1 of Zealous Judge. The deck would not be playable without it.

It has no chance of becoming a mainstream deck the way vegan CtM was at Worlds. Using HHN to create tempo and open scoring windows is wayyyyyy easier than using it to kill.

110

Huh, I completely agree. Freedom Through Equality costs so much in money and in clicks that I cannot imagine choosing to play it when I cannot 100% steal an agenda. Given how much more frequently it was run with Keyhole and Indexing and Spy Camera from Valencia, Kate and Geist respectively I think that is consistent with how most people used it.

RE what others are discussing: I think vegan NBN exists even without HHN, in the form of Midseasons or to act as pressure alongside glacier or FA shenanigans. If you consider the D&D meta, Psycho-Beale Sync was all the rage. That deck is even stronger now with Sensie, although it loses 2 Astroscripts. Now that Boom is out, and damage prevention has (unwisely) given way to tag prevention, we don’t see vegan NBN any more, not just because Boom invalidates previously popular damage prevention but mostly because runners have extremely tempo ways to clear or avoid tags instead of being buried.

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111

This is called an absurd demonstration.

This means it’s not because you can’t play against a whole set of cards that it’s sane for the game to remove them.

I though “ban yellow” had some sort of baby meme status, since “yellow this, yellow that” happens everytime people are talking about ANR balance. Most of the time, people replied “FA is usefull to the game”.

I also though people could read between lines normally and did not need an explanation.

“troll” actually applies to people that don’t enter a debate to explain their position.

My position is “removing something in the game is the same thing as adding something in the game”. For exemple, removing a card like rumor’s mill is the same consequences on the meta as if you add it : it creates and removes lots of decks.

Adding = removing is true in games I try to create, it’s true in anything gaming creative I’ve done since I play.

Second, people tend to forget trap decks because they are left in the mud since day 1 when ice denial these day is naturally predated by trapping. In response, people would use multiaccess (damage protected) hardware than, oh, will be removed by rotation very soon.

-edit- Third, if you remember, Astro was one of the most debated card in the game since the begining. What happenned, they made it unique. Since them, everybody is happy.

Most of the times, the cards listed there could be set as unique.

The effect is it does not remove totally the predation, so decks that would be created by their absence would not be totally safe bets. It makes the predation happening only in half of the games, and, in this happening game, it’s equally early-mid-late, not in 100% of the games early or sometimes mid.

As a (maybe weak ??) exemple, nobody complains about a card like Eden Shard. It would be a real plague if it was allowed 3x per decks, happening as regularly as a Syphon and stabilizing very powerfull moves (that I tested) like Shard-Déja Vu-Shard or Shard - SOT Déja Vu - Shard prepared by an optionnal run Jackson and closed by a run archives.
I’d agree inf cost on Sifr are stupidly low (they knew how to price it credit-wise but they are not complying to their influence barema, “if there is one”. I’ve got ideas about one that would work btw.) and possibly pre-designed for MWL. I’d agree some cards are stupid, and that FFG are faultive on the gamedesign level on this (but I also remember that as players, we tend to forget industrial and commercial needs, and that the game have bigger cost today - stocks, lesser client numbers…- than in its early days). No problems with this.

But removing the predation as a whole is too strong as a balance attempt : I don’t think it’s clever than those stupid cards.

112

@anon34370798 my dude, you goooooota stop being so condescending to people. Your viewpoint is valid and should be considered but the way you present things just makes people recoil.

You’ve got some fair points, counter-building and counter play is always a thing but I think traps are not the catch all you think they are. Multiple reasons:

-SIFR (the card you are bringing up traps as a counter to) has no direct interaction with traps but, really, neither does any other console so traps don’t really discourage the use of SIFR. ( I guess Box-E, and Logos interact tangentially with hand size, and Heartbeat can cancel damage but these effects are usually not worth the influence or loss of a more practical console.)

-Trap decks (with the exception of PE) are weak against Medium digs and vamp/siphon. Ice Destro helps these strategies.

-Most importantly - Not everyone enjoys / wants to play using traps or asset spam, especially to have a match-up that is pretty much a neutral anarc v trap match-up

Lets look at adding = removing. There is something to this but I think what has been missed is how the majority of cards mentioned for purposed bans are those that, as individual cards, remove entire archetypes of decks.

Ice destruction would still exist (and still be powerful) with out SIFR but can decks utilizing ice over 5 cost really function well with it existing?

Criminal decks that capitalize on stealing agendas and remove tags easily will still exist without Aaron Marron but can tag trickery or thousand cuts PE decks function well with his existence?

Rumor Mill severely hampers glacier and so on and so on (Interestingly enough, the corp cards that are on this list tend to be enablers rather than cards that prevent archetypes but personally, I would agree that many are way above an acceptable power curve or only used for NPErunner)

In these cases, yes, you are removing cards but re-adding entire archetypes so I feel that the trade is worth it.

Anyway brother-fam, try to be a bit nicer in the future - catch more flies with honey and all. You like trap decks, you should know this! :stuck_out_tongue:

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113

I’m going to add a wild out-on-a-limb suggestion for MWL (but not ban) and that’s CHRONOS PROJECT.

  • Heap recursion or Levy-type effects are critical to some archetypes within each of the factions (e.g. Geist, MaxX, and Hayley all make use of the heap) so this is not a case of a Geist player lobbying against a card they don’t like. Just trying to think fairly.
  • I feel Ark Lockdown got the power level about right. It can be built around (“include a second copy of your fracter for your health”), it can be played around (“don’t put breakers in the bin if you suspect Ark Lockdown”), it rewards clever play and timing by the corp, and when it hits it can really devastate.
  • A 3/1 agenda is in essence self-balancing since it changes agenda composition, but I think there is clear precedent for neutral agendas with very strong effects having an influence cost.
114

Yeah, but I think those decks were hiding diversity ? PE sort of “died” way before any of those cards, because glacier was way too efficient compared to their more or less 55% w/r. It was not because of a bullet. Glacier took it.

It is a problem of power curve : people had the habit since Lunar that Corp > Runner. In a very short period, Runner became > Corps. I think we have to deal with it until FFG reverse the thing again. Remember how Andy & Criminal as a whole was imperious before difficulties to avoid multitrash program capacities.

Corp took no, or close to no risks in my opinion (FA and shelter glacier is no risks imho), and to me it’s a good thing that they are hesitating again, because this forces a renewal.

Archetypes destroyed by a bullet is never a problem. I’m very bad at this but anticipating the meta is to me a great advantage to win a tournament (I’m so bad at this that I anticipate the exact decks that everyone win against).
“Too much bullets” enable this in my opinion, because this is classifying threats to very simple categories, and, by banning cards and limiting the o-sh*t bullets, permiting those simple categories to live and create omnidecks (deck that can defend or attack everything).

Corp have no solution ? They had no solution to Andy back in the days until someone took NEH and started to spam assets up to the neighborhood.

I think that if you don’t force people to change, they will “create” lazy glaciers or lazy FA or lazy horizontal until the end of Netrunner. I don’t like playing against a 2 year old something-coat, I played that way too much last 2 years.
Some new decks need to emerge where anticipating the runner would play all those cards mean dead draws and lost tempo.

w/r ratios like > 60% only due to lists need to disappear ihmo (I can tell that if I use a proven list I’m more or less easily in those w/r if not 65-70%. This may be normal or not, but I don’t understand that my self-called “skill” have no higher incidence playng random lists vs random lists).
When the people tell that champions between themselves wins more by luck factor than by skill factor, it bothers me. Because I don’t see any progression in my luck when I can imaging training to get to more skill.

115

I don’t mean to sound condescending here, but the precedence for the cards on the MWL dictates that they are powerful, widely played cards. Chronos Project is a niche/tech card, and it’s fine that way. Back when PPVP Kate and Maxx were the most popular decks, it was a great tech include in certain decks, since then it has seen little competitive play so there really is no reason to MWL it.

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117

I find this list kind of insulting. Right now there are about 10 runner & 10 corp types of decks or “archetypes”, that as a runner or corp, you have to build your deck to be READY for. But so unfortunately (BUT THANK GOD FOR A GREAT META) you CAN’T build your deck for EVERY different a-type out there, only like 2/3s of the top decks leaving your deck vulnerable to the other 1/3 which if someone chose to play and you played against them YOU WOULD LOSE! (it’s called a meta call). This is what makes this card game so great.

After some mandatory cards we have to throw in our decks when make either corp or runner, we have 15 or so card slots (or 10 in 40 card limit) in which to actually BUILD a Deck, to make local-meta, or net-meta choices. But right now you CAN’T BUILD a runner or corp deck, that will beat every deck you face which is a GREAT thing, it’s a broad base.

The cards you propose would NERF so many perfectly FINE winning strategies. If your ban list were to be implemented, it would narrow the remain deck building strategies so that everyone would figure out the ONE runner deck that would win all the time, and the ONE corp deck that would win all the time (because you would only leave like 5-10 powerful cards on each side). And then everyone would end up playing the two winning corp/runner decks. And then you would need to restrict some cards again.

If you look at how the MWL list, came about, it was because there was ONE deck that was destroying everything and forced you (almost) to play it and that was Astro-train and at that time everyone did play it, and that was even b4 they got their Deluxe Set. So the FFG team, went in and tore that deck apart!

But your ban list wants to dismantle 6-7 different decks leaving the cupboard bare. Screw that man. I mean yeah there are a couple cards on the list like 2 I see. But holy smokes.

It’s like you’re going in to jinteki.net or octgn and keep playing 5 different corp decks getting beat and then facing 5 different runner decks getting beat, and wanting to ban all the cards from those 10 (5/5) decks. WOW

Here is an example: Blackmail. Some decks/factions can include 2-6 cards that hose the Bad Pub they get, or even REZ ICE. But most builders don’t want to put those cards in their decks because when they play other Runners/Factions they are DEAD CARDS, guess what? TOO BAD. Either include them to protect yourself or lose to Blackmail but that is just ONE strategy, you have to be ready for.

Having a meta with 1 corp deck that just beats everything, and 2 runner decks that beat everything is definitely a reason for an MWL restriction session.

But having a meta with 5 different corp deck strategies that just win, mixed with 5 different runner decks with strategies that just win (all based on meta calls). Is a Great Meta.

FFG has one last cycle and then rotation, which should change things up and then we’ll see.

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118

Caps lock intern? Is that you?

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119

Yeah, I do a yell a little :open_mouth: Sorry I’ll be a little mouse in corner. But here is one other thing to think about:

Back in the day people would cry so hard over Siphon, and I was just like shut up. And when the MWL list came out they didn’t even touch it. Because it already had a 4 INF fix and was just a Meta/Archetype you had to be ready for that not every runner could play effectively.

But I know there are some guys who have problems because that can’t make that ONE deck that beats everything…to make them feel comfortable when they go to their tournament. They have to have that “secure” feeling that they’ve got the best deck. Not a deck that is “well it’s pretty good” but loses to this or that. No they want a deck that beats everything…

Just a thought…

p.s. but I guess you are just building this list for your local “league” or whatever…

120

Many words there.

I don’t think we differ in objective at all, we seem to differ in analysis. My objective with this list is indeed to get a meta with many valid decks, just like you describe, and I disagree that that is where we are now.

Maybe your local meta is fine and healthy, but take a look at jinteki.net competitive… Hardly 10 different decks on each side there.

Another thing, I think the type of decks (the gameplay they lead to) is very important. Deck diversity means little to me if only non-interactive combo decks are all people play.

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121

Name them. In the top 16 at Worlds last year, there was tempo CTM, Shutdown/Boom! kill (NBN), AND THAT WAS IT, making a 100% yellow corp. 72% of the top 30% of corps were yellow, when at worlds 2015 it was 47% (split with Foodcoats). On the orange side of the table, two-thirds of the decks were Whizzard, Anarch, or a couple MaXx in the top 16, using some combination of Obelus’ and Temujin Contract. (Meaning that despite the display of IDs, there will still only two types of runner.) Despite what some people choose to remember, in 2015 the field was split evenly between Shaper and Anarch, with Prepaid Kate, DLR Val, Reg-Ass Anarch, Faust Noise, other Faust decks, and even Endless Waltz Leela in the top 3.

Now maybe you’re saying that Worlds 2016 was a bad time, (after all, during Blood Money NBN represented 60% of the top decks, which according to knowyourmeta.com is the highest it’s ever been: Astro-train hell my ass) and that since the release of Quorum and other packs that the meta has exploded in size. But what I maintain, and I think those that many of us want to maintain, is that the banlist is not trying to invalidate particular deck types, but to prune to allow variation and growth. The presence of Aaron Marron, for example, has sent CTM to the gutter, from 30% of top decks to 10% (according to knowyourmeta.com) That’s unacceptable for the effect of a single card, and that would be if Aaron Marron was ONLY good against CTM.

Actually the whole knowyourmeta.com site is pretty eye-opening if you haven’t seen it. Temujin Contract is in 60% of decks, which is you know, insane. 99% of Andromeda decks, 90% of Smoke decks, and 40% of Whizzard. This might be why I’m of the opinion it’s too good, but your mileage may vary.

I think I speak for all of us who think that the current meta is less varied than it has ever been in the past, and that those decks that are powerful are less interactive than those in the past.

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