Yeah but see those are two different extremes on the sides of the spectrum.
left/rIght whichever, but you have Local Store Meta <--------> Jinteki.net World Meta
The world meta is the best of the best cards and people come to WIN at all costs, that is the peak of deck building and performance.
Local Meta is bring whatever have fun. I don’t think you can have a Worlds/Regional Tournament MWL and Local Store MWL…
I can agree whole heartedly with quite a bit of what you are saying, but some of the cards are just there to swing the pendulum from corp to runner, Temujin tho is sick.
But I posted right after, it’s two different sides of the meta. Local vs World.
But it’s like this old card game called Versus, when it came down to playing competitive and for the championship, people ALL played what eventually got sorted out after the year was a decklist that everyone played, the SAME deck, card for card almost.
I mean it’s like how a year goes by, but the next year it’s not the same decks or even faction… (but don’t get me wrong NBN has been a ROYAL pain for us all)…
But in almost ALL card games with the internet-hive-mind, and net-decking FOMO, we are not going to get equal distribution of the World Championship, being all factions equally played for both runners and corp…
I can safely say that my Gagarin Chief Slee Killdeck is 100% unaffected by any of the proposed ban or MWL changes.
It’s unfortunate really, IMO Temujin is excellently DESIGNED if not balanced power-wise, but that’s down to personal opinion - and these stats can lie if you consider that Temujin’s popularity does partly come down to the number of horizontal decks. If it had different numbers, a job that gave credits for each successful run on a single server would be much better without punching above the power curve. But we don’t have that card, so we have to decide what to do with this one, which is a much harder proposition.
But on the rest of what you said: the “Worlds” meta isn’t the decks everyone agreed to play, but the decks that everyone agreed was the best decks to play. The numbers for Worlds 2016 are slightly skewed because the 3rd, 4th, 8th, 16th 19th and 26th placed runner decks were all the same (Hate Bear Whizzard). These decks were played by some of the best players in the game, and to say that this was an “internet-hivemind” move would frankly be insulting. They played these decks because they rigorously trialed every possibility and came to the conclusion that this was the best deck (and the winner of Worlds went on record to say that if it weren’t for chance, they were right).
The way you’re giving the dichotomy between highly competitive play and low competitive play seems to suggest that in a tournament environment, people are too scared to try new decks. Timmy Wong, who once brought Whizzards to Worlds when it was held as bad and knew he could outperform that, brought Whizzard to Worlds again because it was good and he knew that no matter what curveball he threw he could not outperform it.
Nah, the internet hive-mind that is netrunnerdb.com, jinteki.net, among various other sites, even reddit, whittles down the card pool as group thing day-by-day, week-after-week, data pack after data pack, till world championships. There is no way a single individual can trial or build all the possibilities and play-test them.
When you goto netrunnerdb.com for instance and just even look at one card and go WOW that is a good card, that’s hive-minding. i.e. bringing cards, ideas, and even decks to the forefront, for discussion and possible quick plays on jinteki.net, or at your local store.
In which they either show progress, or get shot down…
This discussion about the hivemind solving the meta I only partly agree with. I top 4’d Nordic nationals this year with Jinteki PE and Leela. I played Chris Dyer and won both games (slimly I’ll add, they were tense games)
The hivemind does produce efficient decks no doubt, but the alternative decks are out there.
The problem IMO is more that the hivemind-decks are usually easy to pick up and play, especially under pressure. Their initial complexity curve is low and power high. That said they can have a very high ceiling as well, whizzard is a complex tactical deck for example.
For most players it is not worth the effort of starting from scratch, taking something proven is safer (and quite wise) but things like Railgun or Dyper is unproportionally popular because of their simple powerful game plan.
What I’d like to see is this kind of deck pushed to the tier 1,5 sidelines, making the best players play complex decks, and thus by example encourageing other ambitious players to put in the effort.
This is where FFG currently fails in my mind, they seem to consider any diversity good, and try to force it by printing power-cards. This affects the ‘quality’ of the game IMO, and that is what I’m reacting against.
I tested my list and Friends in High Place should be considered to MWL,we found in my meta Foodcoats packs 2-3 FIHP is ridiculously strong since it can abuse BBG and Caprice in a way it never should be able to do.
Have you adapted by using denial, polop and interdiction? Re-using caprice requires 2 cred för fihp, 2 för rez and at least 1 to bid. Also 5 inf per caprice, and they need to find her.
I think you won’t push decks down tiers if you ban their cards. You will just remove those decks.
There is low inf tutors that acts as card synonymes.
Ultimately Interdiction and Councilman make poor Caprice counters because the corp can rez them during their turn. Pol Op is, I think, a perfectly suitable counter for Caprice but FIHP can overwhelm the runner with recursion in never-advance decks.
I’m not sure what low-inf tutor for Caprice you’re thinking of Syntax. Aggressive Negotiation?
Maybe true. In these cases there is a choice between MWL-ing a whole bunch of different cards to push them to 1,5, or just disabling them altogether with a ban. The second option is simpler, causes less collateral damage to other decks, and thats what i’m going for here.
I was speaking more generally about where i would like the design to be (from scratch). What i would consider ‘optimal’. Now we have to work with the cards that are printed however, and then it is not as simple.
Kind of. They are soft-counters, and work quite OK many times. Kind of like how Rumor-mill soft-counters Jackson. We have seen a clear change in Jackson-use.
That said things like PolOp are needed to be hard-counters. But don’t underestimate the need to pre-rez unique cards like Caprice and Ash, it costs money and causes an oppurtunity-cost of where to use the card on the corp. In addition it gives the runner absolute certainty.
I think there is space for something akin to a lower powered rumor-mill as well, but we have to work with the cards we got after all.
At first we tested usual Foodcoats and it feels strong and balanced like old netrunner,then we tried to slot FIHP and things went nuts.The fact that FIHP let you play 2 cards effectively reduced caprice rez cost for 0 (if you install BBG and Caprice),or when you are in a stronger position you can recur Ash and Caprice,and many other stuffs like money(BGG+Campaign) or ICE that being destroyed, simply demolished all the effort runner did for a 2-cost card.
We use old Polop since this is one of the best-designed counter,Interdiction does not do much here since they can rez cards before your 1st click.
And FIHP also still massively boosts the power of asset spam deck (RP,IG,PU),an archetype that I’m okay with but do not hope it becomes too strong.
Other things currently works fine,didn’t find particular trouble here.
Thanks a lot for your input. I’ll see if we have the same experience, haven’t yet played against a deck that tries to abuse this combo.
Keeping an eye on it for round 2 (of adjusting the list).
So how was your test?I wish to know more about how your list works.
I have actually been on a trip to Russia this weekend, so haven’t had time to dig in just yet. Planning on starting testing this week, but i’m definitely up for Jinteki-games in the GMT+1 timezone. Between 11AM and 17PM saturday would be a good time for some Jinteki card-slinging.
I played a game with SimonMoon’s list (mentioned in the OP) and I can confirm that in a world without Feedback Filter (which is in his banlist) Potential Unleashed is just terrifying in a world with Ark Lockdown. Feedback Filter just happens to be your best bet against lots of pings as net damage prevention. Would not recommend. Hostile Infrastructure definitely should be there. I know everyone is excited to try Foodcoats or “honest” Netrunner again but we should also check that the archetypes we’re trying to kill stay dead (although to link back to what Elusive said, I still think it’ll remain at tier 2 alright).
Also, I don’t think PPvP is good enough any more even off the MWL. You already ran a fine line of not enough money and against modern decks with recursion and must-trash assets you don’t make enough. Besides, spending 6 influence on economy cards that don’t make you 32 credits just isn’t worth your time.
I find it interesting that we’ve somehow come to the conclusion that the only two options for fixing cards is banning or MWL. Why not just fixing them?
Make Sifr cost 11 like Blackguard. Have Aaron either draw a card or remove a tag. Make Temujin 3 influence. Make Caprice a trash to use card. Have Sandburg cost 3 to rez. Make Rumor Mill cost 4.
The did it with Astroscript and Museum of History after all.
If we are going to go all hypothetical, why not tackle the core problems with these cards?
Because until Netrunner goes digital, we have to play with pieces of cardboard. If these pieces of cardboard don’t contain the correct rules to netrunner, why would anyone buy them?
We are already doing this. The cards don’t contain MWL indicators. Astroscript and WNP and Museum don’t have unique modifiers.
Print a Netrunner 3rd anniversary update pack that includes 3 of each card that is errata’d. Heck, use alternate art and charge for it.