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Netrunner Invitational Finals Match: Alexfrog vs JopeJope


#1

The final match between JopeJope and Alexfrog in the Netrunner invitational finished today.

http://stimhack.com/netrunner-invitational-finals-match/

Discuss the games and interviews.


#2

Great games! though they did seem much more standard in the finals than the premise of the tournament would’ve let to expect.

First game: Really lucky turn around for JopeJope. Rototurret solo on R&D seemed risky versus a deck running Parasites. Even before I knew the outcome, I think if I was in Alex’s position, I would’ve drawn for ice to stop that Medium from going any deeper. I’m really surprised he didn’t: letting JopeJope access didn’t seem like good odds to play. I guess I prefer running the risk of potentially not drawing ice (and worse case scenario: making the digs go two cards deeper) versus the risk of letting JopeJope access more cards with only minimal resistance from Pop-up Window and potentially access more agendas. Depending on how much ice you’ve seen so far, I’d rather take the risk and draw for ice for the opportunity to outright halt any more Medium running than letting more accesses through.

Game two: I’m really surprised Alex didn’t run R&D after the Pop-up Window had just been installed. Even running to just see the ice (say if it was an ETR ice), would’ve been helpful information. Installing Datasuckers instead makes one vulnerable to Rototurret. I guess I probably would’ve used the Inside Job to get the Melange.

I don’t know if it was made public what exactly were the decks that could not be used in the tournament, but it seemed to me that JopeJope was running pretty standard decks (as I’ve frequently seen Pawnshop as an alternative to Workshop). From watching all the matches, seemed like the only restriction was don’t run Gabe or HB:EtF. Regarding Alex’s runner, I think DLR is too conditional: works best when you can DLR twice, but that requires that you can bring the corp down to 0-1 credits with Vamp/Account Siphon.

Congratulations to Alex for the match win!


#3

I shouldve iced R&D more game 1. I was hoping to push agendas through super fast and then do it. Or just win. I thought he would make a play for the SanSan and wanted to make it hard. Instead the parasite and medium came out. He had no wyldside or djinn so I thought I might have some time. But he drew it right away.

Great games! though they did seem much more standard in the finals than the premise of the tournament would’ve let to expect.

The people who played “interesting” decks proved that those decks were weaker. The people who played good decks with interesting cards showed that the solid decks are solid for a reason.


#4

I guess I was hoping for some new deck idea to come out of left field and blow my mind, but I think the Core + Genesis card pool was too small for that to happen, and that was an unreasonable hope. I didn’t find the weaker decks much interesting, since they weren’t very strong. Interesting would’ve been weird + very competitive.

To be fair, if I had played in such an event, I probably would’ve run as competitive of a deck as I could, within the limitations. Which would’ve perhaps meant standard NBN and either Noise or Andy. Hmm, though, I might’ve actually tried Noise DLR.

Maybe now is a good time for a new tournament. Something like Stimhack Double Elimination C&C Debut OCTGN Tournament? With all the new cards, Stimhack could be the frontier for showing off new and updated decks.


#5

pop up window has filtered out of a lot of my decks mainly because of RnD interface + desperado is a fairly common opening start against criminal.

gabe and andromeda do a lot of work without a rig and pop up window doesn’t really encourage them to look for breakers. i think the only way to beat criminal currently is to make them look for breakers and score in those tiny windows or punch enough holes in their hand with net damage they lose a key breaker.

ive started popping non flatline ronins against criminals if i suspect their hand is good because of what they have been discarding. whether it has meant more wins lol…not sure but it certainly feels better than rolling over to account siphon.


#6

Congrats, Alex!

Both runners got lucky, but Alex was 4-5x as lucky (saw 4-5x fewer cards) as JopeJope I’d say. But both within fairly normal ANR variance tolerances :).

R&D: it’s super-important!


#7

Both runners got lucky, but Alex was 4-5x as lucky (saw 4-5x fewer cards) as JopeJope I’d say. But both within fairly normal ANR variance tolerances :).

I saw about 8 cards. Was lucky to get 7 points by then, I shouldve had like 4.

Jopejope saw like 14? different cards. Medium for 6 followed by Medium for 7 isnt 7 extra looks, its 1 more, plus one for each card you were able to trash. So almost twice as many.

On the other hand, I was at 5 points with rezzed SanSan and scored Astroscript.

Pretty much we both won as runner, with lots of pressure in an R&D attack.


#8

gabe and andromeda do a lot of work without a rig and pop up window doesn’t really encourage them to look for breakers.

Popup window is one of the best ice against them because it lets you afford your other ice. It doesnt fail you and sit unrezzed after they drain you or attack other areas, instead it helps you recover.

Now, you DO also need other ice that make them look for breakers.


#9

i agree that pop up window is nice siphon recovery but its a double edged sword. if the runner was paying 1 credit and a click for a 20 percent of winning 5 credits they probably would be right to be running every time. the runner in reality is paying 1 credit and a click for a 20 percent chance of winning over 1/3 of the corps “stack” of losable agenda points. while i dont think you can determine an exact click or credit value for an agenda point i think the poker concept of pot odds is applicable.

pop up window on RnD is offering the runner the right pot odds to access every time and show profit in the long run. im perfectly fine running pop up window in jinteki because there is a non zero chance they are paying part of the cost of snare or losing the credit they need to steal fetal and i know there is zero percent chance of them winning 3 agenda points because im running all 2 pointers but i dont personally have much use for it in my other corp decks.

maybe im way off base with the pot odds. i used to play a lot of online poker and pop up window on RnD feels like throwing a tiny bet into a massive pot then throwin a fit when the guy hits his flush.


#10

i agree that pop up window is nice siphon recovery but its a double edged sword. if the runner was paying 1 credit and a click for a 20 percent of winning 5 credits they probably would be right to be running every time. the runner in reality is paying 1 credit and a click for a 20 percent chance of winning over 1/3 of the corps “stack” of losable agenda points. while i dont think you can determine an exact click or credit value for an agenda point i think the poker concept of pot odds is applicable.

First of all, the thing about popup window is that its usually not: “Popup window versus (other ice)”. Its: Popup window versus not being able to rez any other ice. So its massively better for you to get $1 and the runner to lose $1, than for them to get in completely free.

Second, the money you get from multiple popup runs by the runner, accessing 1 card at a time, pays for you to put another ice there and rez it. It helps you build the real defense.

Third, popup is extremely efficient. $1 for the corp is actually more valuable than $1 for the runner, since runner economy is so much stronger. Therefore, the result of popup (without Yog) is worth more than a $2 swing.

If you have a Wall of Static, it ends the run. But as soon as they get Corroder, they are breaking your $3 cost ice for $2. Popup still results in a better than $2 swing, and it cost $0!

If you have an Enigma, it ends the run and they lose a click. But as soon as they get Yog, they are breaking your $3 cost ice for $0. Popup still gives a better than $1 benefit, and it cost $0!

On average, five runs on that R&D will result in the runner losing 5 clicks, $5, and you getting $5, and they will average 2 points. I would generally spot the runner 2 points to get that kind of early advantage. (I’m not going to want to keep doing it once they have points of course). And of course, if the runner is doing anything more than accessing 1 card, the situation gets much worse and DEMANDS additional defense. For example, if the runner has R&D interface and Desperado, you need more ice there asap.


#11

i get it. its better than nothing but the runner is still betting copper and silver (credits and clicks) to win gold (agenda points). at the very minimum the runner is paying for information which has some non zero value as well + a non zero chance at setting up a turn that goes agenda -> trash melange-> agenda…which puts you so far behind the 8 ball the runner is under no stress and is less likely to be forced into an awkward run.

i dont know. i just have found the card way too dangerous with RnD interface in nearly every deck ive faced in the last month.


#12

i dont know. i just have found the card way too dangerous with RnD interface in nearly every deck ive faced in the last month.

Then dont put popup as the only defense on R&D?
The benefit of popup is that you can put a big ice somewhere, and a popup somewhere else, and then you can defend the thing you need to defend with the big ice, and then when youre broke and they run the other place for free accesses, you can still rez something and make them pay.