I have been thinking the same thing since Fast Track was revealed. Who doesn’t like a good ol’ pull at the slots?
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Just wondering, if we’re going to fast track something out, why not splash shipment from sansan and go for EC? it’s man-ups on the turns that matter if you have shipment
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Those two aren’t mutually exclusive though, are they? I mean… with an EC scored, you can do a 6-token turn (I.e. score ManUp from just installed). Once that is scored, you can do the same with another Committee. After that, closing out with a 3-pointer from hand seems trivial…
(I’ll try to whip up a list for what I have in mind here later today)
You need to have Shipment from SanSan or similar to turn EC into scoring, though – moreover, you need to have all/most of them in hand, or yet more clicks and recursion to boot (or an overscored Vitruvius). Doable, but still tricky. Definitely something I’m thinking about incorporating into my next iteration myself, though, seeing as how I already run EC and Melange, and SfSS is useful even if you can’t score something out entirely. Makes IASfSS a possibility for scoring out ABTs and Vitruviuses, at least, and future ECs from install.
That’s the premise behind my deck: HB: "Paper Wall" · NetrunnerDB. I’ve been playing variants of this as my corp ever since I started playing (in the New Year). I’m not pretending it’s tournament worthy (although it did help me take second in my one store championship), but it does have a very good casual play record.
Come NEXT Silver, Mother Godess and Domestic Sleepers I can see it becoming better, but it’s not there yet.
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How I’m seeing this concept:
- The agenda setup is defined by the concept itself (3x EC, 3x MU, 3x PR/Wotan). The three-pointer to be used will be decided by the rest of the deck and potential secondary plans I manage to incorporate
- Since I want to see/score agendas in a pretty specific order, Fast Track warrants a consideration
- Aiming for 2 ICE in opening hand most of the time. Wishing for 3 is overkill, and I already need to fit a ton of combo pieces. 2 ICE installed and cards replenished is still 4 actions, which is plenty
- Gonna need a bunch of card draw, to guarantee seeing what I need when I need it. Clearances seem like a likely candidate right now. Overdrawing is OK, as I’ll presumably have some (mostly) useless ICE to ditch at any stage of the game
- Since I want to rush out an early agenda, cheap binary ETR ICE sounds like a good fit. Ichis as destroyers to turn them on seems a valid choice for the taxing ICE slots
- Whatever influence I have, I’ll almost certainly want to be spending on Inazuma. It’s useful both as gearcheck/rush ICE (Inazuma/Chimera is surprisingly resilient, for its cost), and to later make Ichis even harder to deal with
- I would like to be able to use SfSS multiple times (because, contingency paths to scoring victory). To that end, I’m going to need recursion, probably Reclamation Orders. They’ll also be useful with Clearance-based economy
With these in mind, here’s my first draft:
The NEXT Manly Committee
NEXT Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)
Agenda (9)
3x Efficiency Committee (Creation and Control)
3x Mandatory Upgrades (What Lies Ahead)
3x Project Wotan (Creation and Control)
Operation (18)
2x Archived Memories (Core Set)
3x Blue Level Clearance (Fear and Loathing)
2x Fast Track (Honor and Profit)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
2x Reclamation Order (Double Time)
3x Shipment from SanSan (Second Thoughts) •••
3x Successful Demonstration (Creation and Control)
Barrier (6)
1x Bastion (Creation and Control)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set) •••
2x Wall of Static (Core Set)
Code Gate (6)
3x Inazuma (Honor and Profit) ••••• •
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
Sentry (8)
3x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set)
3x Ichi 2.0 (Creation and Control)
2x Rototurret (Core Set)
Other (2)
2x Chimera (Cyber Exodus)
12 influence spent (max 12)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit
(apologies for the text-only writeup, seems like the “export to bbcode” functionality of NRDB is busted at the moment… either that, or my browser is acting up)
Comments on how it turned out:
I have to say, I’m reasonably pleased with this first draft. ICE slots aren’t nearly as tight as I thought they would be, the economy seems solid enough (especially once you figure in the recursion) and I even managed to fit in the Fast Tracks. The ICE selection probably needs some fine-tuning (not really loving Bastion here, for instance - not convinced a third Rototurret is the way to go, though), but 22 seems about right for wanting to see two pieces. Sure, 3 of them are completely useless in an opening hand, with another 6 being less than ideal, but I think it’s doable (Ichi on RnD isn’t such a horrible turn-zero play). If I wanted to free up influence, I could swap Ice Walls for something else (probably Bastions and WoS, with the obvious replacement being NEXT Silver once it comes out), couldn’t really think of anything I’d have rather than Ice Walls though.
(if ManUp turns out to be too much of a dead weight, I can always swap them out for ABTs… would like to try this version first, though)
So, critique away!
edit: am I too off-topic at this stage? Should this be a different thread? Alternatively, should the discussion be re-named to “Making NEXT worth it” or something, and moved into the Archetype discussion?
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The big issue I see is Inazuma. It’s an amazing card, but with three of them, that actually leaves you with 19 Ice insofar as NEXT’s ability is concerned. So only having 2 is likely, but only having 1 is also very possible, as Inazuma’s a useless card to NEXT out, since you won’t have the cards to make any of your centrals a trap. I considered it for a while, myself, but for all that it’s amazing, I don’t think positional Ice is the right call in NEXT Design, certainly not as a 3-of with only 22 Ice in the first place. I know you say it’s not a big deal, but it was an irritant for me in a 27-Ice deck, so with 5 less… I don’t think it’s the right call at that level of consistency.
I have loved having Tollbooth in NEXT, myself, but I’m a big fan of it in general. If you swap out Inazuma, I’d definitely consider popping one in at the Ichi 2.0 slot. That said, my NEXT Deck has been rather Ice-intensive, with the idea being to create safe opportunities to use ABT almost always. That hasn’t been working perfectly.
You’ve got no Econ Ice, which I think might be a mistake. Caduceus is good, though you’re sentry-heavy. Shadow is worse, because while you can advance it out of Mimic range you don’t have any benefit from tags (maybe Bad Times, when Upstalk is out?). Pop-Up Window doesn’t ETR which makes it a nuisance for your first turn, and expensive to place into a tower later, but it’s money. Having something there that’ll make you a bit of cash your first turn and recoup rez cost seems worthwhile, to me. Your econ does seem plenty strong without it, but if there’s a way to squeeze it in, it might really help you out some.
Looking forward to Upstalk, I might consider a Mother Goddess even without NEXT Silver, for the opportunity of a 4-strength typeless ETR your first turn, possibly to cover a scoring server or R&D. I think it might merit more of an inclusion than Bastion, for all that it does very different things.
I’m curious about the decision for ManUp. It’s doable, and it’s certainly good to have, but with all your Agendas taking 4+ points, you’re not going to be able to score any from hand with just one, which is the advantage ManUp provides ABT and Vitruvius. I also find Vitruvius helpful for recursion, as I said, and might propose one instead of at least one of the ManUps, since you’ve got Fast Track to find them. Not certain on that, of course, but you’ve got a tough road to plow to score any of those Agendas all that easily.
EDIT: To go more into the issue with Inazuma, you say it yourself, you have 9 Ice that aren’t ideal for Turn Zero. Ichi 1.0’s certainly not the worst, but barring an economic windfall, Ichi 2.0 is probably not getting rezzed first-turn either, especially if you’re hoping to start scoring an agenda quickly. So that’s more like 6~ Ice that doesn’t “count” when considering useful openings, which is a full quarter of your Ice package.
I’ve read lots of people saying that a all-on rush isn’t competetive yet, but I think that when next silver comes out that the main weakness of rush (that your ice becomes useless after a while) is nullified by the abilities of NEXT Ice, which can be both cheap ETR and taxing near the end. Since rush needs something that’s worth a lot to have out early (like Astroscript) ManUp can work for that. The weakness I see with the previous posted deck is that you have to get out 2 agendas before the time runs out, while with only 2/3 cost agendas you only need to get out 1 Agenda. I use Blue Level Clearance instead of Green because it gives more money, and Next Design covers one of its biggest weaknesses. Mushining out a ManUp and then guarding it with a guard, chimera, or mother goddess is relatively safe at the beginning and may even allow you to score it on your third turn. The Ichi’s, in particular 2.0, are good at returning you to the point where you can get out agendas, in case you faltered at the beginning. The number of ice may seem like a lot, but it’s important for you to get at least two Ice you can rez on the first turn, and preferably three.
I think that this build is what really needs to be tested - servers focused on taxing work better in EtF, and a complete rush works better in TWIY, but Next Design’s main benefit is that it has both a powerful start and the ability to keep the runner out for a longer period of time than other rush decks.
Here’s what I would use:
The NEXT Full Rush
NEXT Design: Guarding the Net
Agenda (11)
3x Accelerated Beta Test
2x Domestic Sleepers
3x Mandatory Upgrades
3x Project Vitruvius
Operation (12)
3x Blue Level Clearance
1x Fast Track
3x Hedge Fund
2x Mushin No Shin ••••
2x Successful Demonstration
Asset (1)
1x Jackson Howard •
Barrier (7)
3x Ice Wall •••
3x Next Silver
1x Wotan
Code Gate (6)
2x Inazuma ••••
3x NEXT Bronze
1x Viktor 2.0
Sentry (9)
2x Guard
3x Ichi 1.0
2x Ichi 2.0
2x Rototurret
Other (4)
2x Chimera
2x Mother Goddess
12 influence spent (max 12)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
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Done some testing. Swapped GLC for Successful Demo (which works very good here, particularly against Criminals), and found that Fast Track doesn’t feel needed - there’s card draw, and the only agenda I can’t reasonably start my scoring chain with is Wotan, anyway. The recursion was decent, as was Inazuma.
Onto replies:
- Inazuma is a calculated risk - sure, it’s not usable on turn zero, but it actually plays really well with NEXT (which decreases the click cost of getting an Inazum-y server). They definitely stay for now. Replacing them with Booths would be a mistake, the econ isn’t bursty enough for that
- Econ ICE - I feel like a focus on econ ICE in a deck that aims to make runs unsuccessful as early as possible is a trap. Seeing how all econ ICE cost me influence, I’d rather spend that on reinforcing what I’m going for here, and use all those delicious purple econ options instead. Caduceus’ only benefit is that it’s sometimes a pseudo-free rez on turn 1 facechecks… and even that might not be true, if you have a decent opponent, a runner with link, someone who is afraid of Katanas and drops a Mimic, etc.
- ManUp + EC out at the same time is just flat out insane. You can score a Wotan from hand, and even have spare time for recursion. Two ManUps is just GG, really.
- 3/2s are only important if you’re Fast Advancing with Biotics, in my opinion. ManUp + ABT + Vitruvius is a package that never worked for me, mainly because ManUp requires a completely different support package from the ABT + Vitruvius plan, and you can’t fit in both.
- “I use Blue Level Clearance instead of Green” - um, you did notice I’m running both, right?
(or rather, I was before I swapped GLC for Successful Demo) - I tried Mushin Next, didn’t like it. Basically, there’s anti-synergy with your identity working its full effect, as well as the layering of ICE that’s a natural side-effect of running so many pieces.
(or rather, I was before I swapped GLC for Successful Demo)Changes:
- Fast Track says goodbye for now, to be replaced with two more pieces of turn zero ICE. What they’ll be I don’t know yet - maybe even Paper Walls (early they’re awesome, late they can always eat an Inside Job)
- Bastion goes away too, to be replaced with the third Roto (moar Inazuma synergy!)
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This is almost acurate, but not quite. You did not take into account the mandatory draw right after mulligan. It might not seem much, but it sure matters. For example for 22 ice in a 49 card deck:
2 ice starting hand
First try 0,755186996
After mulligan and mandatory draw 0,963724517
3 ice starting hand
First try 0,400852385
After mulligan and mandatory draw 0,737521562
So it actually is 10% more than in your example.
My calculations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NwnudLS0M3odpYOnOG5emBKFf8dQKGG61XsEWLUqBXY/edit#gid=0
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google hypergeometric distribution without replacement and find a calculator, it’ll save you some time. your math is on point though.
I am aware of online calculators, it’s just that a spreadsheet is more flexible, persistent and allows sharing calculations with others.
edit:
BTW, when actively mulling for at least 3 ice in a 22/49 deck (mulling away anything with 2 or less ice), you’ve got about 9% chances to find yourself dead in the water (i.e. with 1 or less ice). Not sure if the 9% risk justifies mulling away a 2 ice hand. Thoughts?
edit2:
After those changes this starts to look very interesting. Not counting inazumas you will have 21 nextable ice which is about right for relatively safe mulligans (mull away only hands with 0/1 less nextables or hands with 2 nextables and no econ). The only doubt is the main plan - it looks a bit chancy for me. You need to see 2 specific agendas relatively quick (1manup+1ec or 2xec probably) and use the remote on both of them. Not sure how reliable this will turn out.
So far, my biggest issue in test games was seeing too many agendas, actually. Blue level and its draw power is not to be underestimated, same as the identity power.
Will test more and report back.
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I didn’t factor in the first draw because you don’t get to draw before using NEXT.
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The biggest issue I found with Next was exactly this. The early game agenda flood.
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I’m happy making this a more general NEXT thread. I’ve been enjoying all the good discussion!
Personally, I’ve started going toward ABT + Biotic Labor. Melange is also nuts. I’ll post an updated decklist later.
Agreed and done. Esecially since the initial post was great and well developed. Feel free to talk about anything NEXT design here.
Surprised we haven’t seen @Sirprim chime in yet.
That’s exactly why I think the 9 agenda route is the way to go (well, that and the deck space for all the ICE)… and of those, the ManUp variant is the most interesting to me personally.
@SneakySly thanks!
I hate to tell you, but DS doesn’t do what you think it does.
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Do we know anything about what it does, yet, or is still all baseless speculation?
@PeekaySK Good point on Econ Ice. I wasn’t suggesting ALL Inazuma’s swap, just one, but even so, fair point.
I’d not fully considered ManUp being scored twice as GG, the reason being that with 3/2s having just the one scored is generally the same.
Paper Walls are an excellent Ice for NEXT, in general. Freeee! It matters. Also, having 24 Ice is a pretty massive difference from 22, I think you’ll find, and makes the other concerns… less.
Something that might’ve occurred to you but apparently doesn’t to a lot of peope – double-layer your Inazumas for added fun. Inazuma>Inazuma>Rototurret is a delight, s’long as Parasite isn’t a thing to worry about.
On that note, do you think you’ll swap in Silver/Goddess when Upstalk hits? It seems like it might leave you quite weak to Parasiting, though the cards are otherwise quite useful (and might make Bronze more worthwhile).
EDIT: How are you finding yourself, in terms of being able to rez all your Ice first-turn?