Official Rules Question Thread

I’m like 99% sure of this interaction, but it has come up twice this week and I haven’t found a crisp explanation of it yet.

The runner has datasucker and sneakdoor beta installed.

Sneakdoor Beta
(click): Make a run on Archives. If successful, instead treat it as a successful run on HQ.

They use sneakdoor beta to make a run on open archives. “If successful” trigger is met for both datasucker and sneakdoor.

I have always assumed that the “successful run on archives” is completely replaced by the “successful run on hq.” However, it seems like the same event triggers both of them (which would imply you get a datasucker counter for the successful archives run and its replacement, the successful HQ run).

Similar situations come up with Security Testing:

The first time you make a successful run on that server this turn, instead of accessing cards, gain 2.

If you target archives and sneakdoor, does sec testing prevent you from accessing cards in HQ? Does it count as “the first successful run” on archives that turn?

And a similar issue will come up with the newly-spoiled Crypt and Omar (and probably a bunch of other cases I’m not thinking of).

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Good point. But is the reveal necessary, or does the ability continue on if the reveal fails, like Aeneas Informant does?

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Well the Aeneas informant wording is “x and y” so you do as much as you can. RNG key says “if it has…” [Sorry, I ran out of MU] and since it doesn’t you don’t. :wink:

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I’m unconvinced. The “if you do” is plainly “if you name a number,” and you can certainly name a number regardless of whether the next card you’re going to access can be revealed.

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I would think the key word is “instead” from “If successful, instead treat it as a successful run on HQ” - there was a successful run on Archives and therefore Sneakdoor has triggered, causing that successful run to instead be treated as a successful run on HQ. There is still only one run, which was successful and on a central server, so Datasucker gets one counter.

But I’ve been wrong before… :wink:

Sorry, I meant the second “if” (was doing it from memory). I fixed it in my above post.

“The first time you make a successful run on HQ or R&D each turn, you may name a number. If you do, reveal the next card that you access this run. If it has a rez cost, play cost, or advancement requirement equal to the named number, either gain 3 or draw 2 cards.”

It is the revealed card, and since you can’t reveal it…

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Why is “it” not “the next card that you access this run” ?

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Ask @jakodrako. I’m just the messenger.

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Ultimately, it shouldn’t matter. The fact that you can’t reveal an installed card means that you can’t gain money from it. Because the first IF can’t be satisfied the second IF which requires the first to be true, does not happen.

Bummer this wasn’t caught with UFAQ. I think most people have misinterpreted how RNG Key works, probably didn’t even think to ask.

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I read it this way as well. You get to choose the order of your simultaneous triggers:

a) Trigger SDB first due to successful Archives run, DS gets a token due to successful HQ run.
b) Trigger DS first, it gets a token due to successful Archives run, but you access cards from HQ due to SDB

Either way, one token.

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Well, that would make sense, but SDB isn’t triggered, it’s a constant effect.

Yeah, I guess it’s not so bad for the datasucker case (where the successful run on archives is replaced with a successful run on HQ, but there is still a single “successful run” trigger).

It gets a little dodgy to me with sec testing – looking at the “conditional abilities” in the rules reference, I think that the explanation for what happens comes from

If the trigger condition of a conditional ability is met by a
specific timing structure of the game (for example, “When
your turn begins…”) and that timing structure becomes invalid
between the trigger condition being met and the ability
triggering, then the triggered ability never triggers and does
not resolve. A timing structure becomes invalidated by that
structure ending prematurely, usually due to simultaneous
effects or chain reactions.

In this case, I think the interpretation is that sneakdoor’s redirect to HQ and Sec Testing’s ability are both satisfied by the successful run on Archives.

If the runner resolves sneakdoor first, then the archives sec test falls into the situation above (the “successful run on archives” trigger is no longer valid once sneakdoor replaces it). Additionally, from the “ordinal events” section of the rules reference:

When an ability refers to a specific ordinal instance of
something happening (e.g. “the first time”, “the second time”,
etc.), it refers to that instance and only that instance. If a
replacement or prevent ability happens, the game still counts it
toward the number of times the replaced or prevented event has
occurred.

if you resolve the sneakdoor first in this situation, the sec testing effect on archives will not trigger again this turn (even though it was replaced with a successful run on HQ, there has already been a successful run on Archives this turn).

In the case of sec test on archives AND hq, you are going to cause at least one of them to fizzle: either you resolve archives sec test, sneakdoor, hq sec test (in which case the HQ sec test cannot replace the “access cards” that the archives sec test already replaced) OR you resolve sneakdoor, archives sec test (fails), hq sec test.

In both cases, the “first run” on both HQ and archives has been used for the turn.

This feels a little straighter in my head, so unless anybody tells me that @3N1GM4’s response and my reading of the rules ref are bogus, I’m going to claim that I understand a thing now.

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As I said, SDB and Omar are constant effects, they do not “trigger.” They just are.

It works like this, if you have Sec Test on Archives and SDB, you will access HQ. If you have SDB on HQ and sneakdoor, you will Sec Test.

I direct your attention here: Sneakdoor Beta & Security Testing Ruling | Android Netrunner Comprehensive Unofficial Rules Wiki | Fandom

Again, you keep using the word “trigger” to express something that is not triggered. Datasucker is triggered on successful run, so it gains a counter when you make a successful HQ run through a sneakdoor run.

Awhile back, someone tried to make the bogus claim that sneakdoor satisfied both HQ and Archives for Apocalypse and Notoriety. It does not.

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Ah, we were posting at the same time.

The relevant section from ANCUR’s giant abilities explanation page

Assume an ability is constant unless it uses “when”, “whenever”, “after”, or “unless”. Constant abilities generally define a “state of being”.

“If” abilities are all constant. This means “if {some trigger}” abilities have priority over “when {some trigger}” abilities. “Until” abilities are also all constant, and can be read as “if not”.

and

Question 12
Is there a priority order for ability resolution? Conventional wisdom in the player community holds constant>conditional>triggered, with prevent effects existing outside of that priority.

Constant abilities are always resolved first. Conditional abilities are a subset of triggered abilities, which also includes paid abilities.

…so sec testing’s text “The first time you make a successful run on that server this turn…” is close enough to “when…” that it is considered a conditional triggered ability, and sneakdoor’s “If successful,…” puts it squarely in “constant ability” land. so sneakdoor must be resolved first.

Thank you for your patience.

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Nothing about the second if requires the first to be true.

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No, it’s a triggered ability. The trigger is “the first time X”. Assume it is constant UNLESS it uses terminology referring to a “time”.

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Still confused. I also don’t see why “it” isn’t “the next card that you access this run”.

I mean, it’s Netrunner card wording, which is sometimes weird, so I can certainly be convinced that “it” is instead “the card you just revealed”. But it’s very unclear to me what about this wording causes that.

Now I’m confused, too. I think you’re right that “the next card that you access this run” is what is being referenced, but I’ve also been told that you can’t expose installed cards and thus can’t use RNG Key on them. I’m torn between the wording and what I’ve been doing in practice. :frowning:

It’s being hotly debated in Stim Slack right now. Jacob came by and confirmed the ruling (not that we don’t believe Chris). Jacob did say he helped write the card and the design is to guess at a card in HQ/R&D (not an upgrade).

My best interpretation is that if you can’t resolve the reveal, then you’ve lost the reference of the card, and don’t get the payout.

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