Alright, now that I’m on a desktop I checked out the tournament rules and I’m relatively certain The Black File scenario will lead to a ‘Modified Game Win’ (aka timed win) for the corp.
Since it is just looking for the highest number of AP between the two players and the corp hasn’t already “won,” this seems to apply without fault. Similarly, we can’t call a draw because the players are not tied in AP.
Having said that, I recognize that one could argue, ala Hans, that applying the Golden Rule to the card text on The Black File means that the corp is ineligible for even a Modified Win, as is this is a kind of win. However, this is a) obviously more than a bit silly, b) still generally doesn’t help the runner, as they explicitly receive a loss and The Black File doesn’t actually prevent losing, c) means that the corp’s outcome for the game is actually stateless (they haven’t received a loss, so they technically don’t receive 0 points, either), and d) even if we treat it as a ‘double loss’ (a case not provided for in the tournament rules), this can lead to some situations in the elimination rounds for which there is no clear resolution (e.g. too many players in the loser bracket or not enough players to complete the bracket).
The moral of the story: if you’ve got The Black File out when time is approaching, you should play lightning fast so it self-trashes unless you are acting out of pure spite. The only possible results for you are likely bad (your opponent gets 2 points instead of 3, lowering your SoS) or worse (your opponent gets 0 points instead of 3), no matter how this is ruled.
There are probably some edge cases where the double loss outcome might help the runner – particularly if this is the last round before the cut and the players are in close contention for the bottom slot – so someone might want to take it up with Damon if you really think it’s worth asking. =)
So I mean, we all know I’m not one to shy from the pedantry of rules debates, and I’m hoping this doesn’t come off as too blunt, but is this Black File interaction worth any consideration? How it should work is obvious, and if anyone brings this up to Damon, he’s not going to give an answer outside of the obvious.
The way I see it, the game is over after two turns pass when time is called; no cards are installed anymore, no game state is relevant, outside of the number of agenda points being recorded at end of game.
No, I’m referring to the fact that you can’t “remove” (not “avoid”) a tag unless you’re tagged. You can’t voluntarily trash Forger if you don’t have a tag. I remember a while back that there is a “partially resolvable effect” rule, but IIRC you had to be able to do both effects (and you may resolve each effect partially). This rule was seriously problematic and I would not be surprised if Damon said you could draw and not remove a tag. The Lawyer Up example is interesting, and this issue deserves some more time. Definitely bookmark it.
/shrug
“Aaron Marron says “draw a card and remove a tag”. Because it’s an “and”, it is two effects smushed together into a single effect. As long as one of those effects can cause a change in game state, then the ability as a whole has the potential to change the game state and can thus be used.” @jakodrako
Lawyer Up is actually the exact example you were looking for. You don’t have to have tags to play it, and it’s worded in the same way as Aaron Marron’s ability (effect and effect).
Lawyer Up works, no doubt, but it was not the example I was looking for. I was hoping to find a paid ability that also works to show that the same concept that works for events (as seen in Lawyer Up) can be shown to work for paid abilities in general (which seemed like the point of contention).
But it seems like everyone is on the same page now, so we’re good.
About Architect: Can it be trashed by En Passant? Someone on jinteki told me “no” (as it is installed), a Google search implies “yes”, the argument being that non-rezzed cards are not active - and so are their card text.
I’d like to be sure about this, when playing the next time.
Just to note as it seems to occasionally add to confusion, this applies even if it’s been rezzed then de-rezzed and both players “know” it’s an Architect. The abilities on face down ice are totally blank.
On an adjacent topic: Mumbad City Grid, subroutine-gaining ice (e.g., Grail ice), and mid-run derezzing (e.g., bird breakers). If a piece of ice gains subroutines for the remainder of the run, then gets derezzed, then it gets rezzed and I encounter it again during the same run, does it still have the subs it gained before, or do they all go away when the ice goes blank from being derezzed?
No;
Citadel Sanctuary and Josh B’s Tag both trigger at the same time (end of turn), but Citadel will only trigger if you have a tag at the end of the turn, which you don’t at that point. “If you are tagged when your turn ends, …”
Compare Underworld Contact, who always triggers at turn begin, but checks for the 2 link when it actually tries to do something. This allows you to have Supplier + Contact, and install your second Link off of Supplier and still get the credit from Contact. “When your turn begins, …”
This is an interesting question. I’m conflicted as to the answer. On one hand, hosted cards/counters remain on an ICE as it derezzes, so that would lean me towards the subs remaining. On the other hand, subroutines are usually part of the state of a piece of ICE (not external like hosted cards/counters), and ICE itself is blank when derezzed, so it might be the case that it clears the subs.
I am not aware of any precedent, but if text on derezzed cards is inactive, then how could the Grail ICE have the extra subroutines while it is derezzed?
Ability effects exist and persist independent of the card that caused the effect once they reach resolution; I don’t think Grail’s effect, itself, becoming blank is a concern? For example, an Adonis that gets derezzed will retain the power counters it gave itself.
The worry is if the subroutines manage to live through the ICE as a whole becoming inactive (because, unlike power counters, subroutines aren’t something that is hosted on the card, but rather seem more akin to being part of the card). So, for example, we have:
Rez Galahad.
Encounter Galahad. Reveal Merlin and Lancelot for 3 subs total.
Break Galahad.
Use Crescentus.
Mumbad City Grid to swap the Galahad into the next position.
Rez Galahad.
Encounter Galahad. Reveal Merlin and Lancelot for ??? subs total.
Even though I realise referring to cards as “blank” is just shorthand, I think it can be misleading - they’re not blank, the text just has no effect. This is important for things like “This ICE can be advanced” and “When this card is accessed…” etc which are exceptions to the general rule of inactivity and I would hazard guess that they at least need to present on the card in order for them to be exceptions.
I could be wrong though, so it’s worth considering this: can Thomas Haas be advanced (unrezzed) if Rumour Mill is out? I would say no, but God knows what the real answer is in Netrunner these days. (I hope I’ve understood those cards right)
