My guess would be no to Thomas Haas. It has been ruled that additional rez costs (Ibrahim) are blanked, which is in a similar (but not the same) boat.
Regardless, this is fairly tangential to the point. By blanking, I did just mean going inactive. Fact is the ability has fired, regardless of the fact that Galahad was made inactive.
If this inactivating of the card providing the effect is a point of confusion, consider the example with Project Wotan + Eli instead of Grail:
Initial State: Project Wotan scored with at least 1 counter remaining. Runner with Crescentus installed running Mumbad City Grid server with 2 pieces of ICE (Eli 1.0 in front).
Rez Eli 1.0 (2 subs).
Project Wotan onto Eli 1.0 (3 subs).
Break Eli 1.0.
Use Crescentus.
Use Mumbad City Grid to swap Eli 1.0 to back.
Rez Eli 1.0 (??? subs).
How this one plays out will be the same as how the Grail example plays out, I’m pretty sure.
[quote=“ironcache, post:3769, topic:1437”]
Regardless, this is fairly tangential to the point.
[/quote]Heh, perhaps you’re right, but I was thinking that considering the text blank weakened your argument. I felt it’s harder for people to consider text-based additions as still present if there’s no text at all, where as counter are more self-evidently there. (I was just trying to strengthen your point :))
I think the fundamental question is whether ICE has subroutines when it’s facedown. If ICE retains subroutines while it’s facedown, then subroutines added until end of run would also be retained.
Hernando Cortez implies that subroutines exist even on facedown ICE, because it’s an additional cost to rez the ICE, so it can’t be rezzed at the time of paying for it, yet we can identify how many subroutines it has.
Hernando is a good consideration. I think I’d rule in favor of it maintaining the subs unless it gets flipped by Damon or someone brings up something pointing to the contrary.
Wouldn’t say it’s definitive, but I’m content. Worth pinging Damon if someone wants to.
NEXT silver is weird because it doesn’t specify for how long or when it gains the subs. I have always just assumed it was the number of rezzed NEXT cards when the runner encounters it. If i have a next silver and rez, derez, rerez a piece of bronze next, does it give the silver 1 or 2 subs?
The way I believe it works is that since NEXT Silver is a constant effect that doesn’t list a duration (key point), it’s only active so long as that card itself is active. If it derezzes, the effect is lost immediately.
Like Parasite, right? Parasite only has an effect on ICE for exactly as long as it remains in play. The instant Parasite becomes inactive, its constant effect is gone.
Grail is a triggered ability that specifies an amount of time that the ability persists, so is a little different. Similar for Wotan.
While the ability is in effect, NEXT Silver gains X ETR subs. Constant abilities are constantly providing their effect, not necessarily constantly re-executing it.
How does Ṣifr interact with Sandbug/Patch/Next Bronze? On one hand it should be obvious, just set the ice strength to 0, on the other hand Ekomind/Theophilius Bagbiter with Akamatsu Memchip/Public sympathy seem like similar cases.
eg:
5 cards in hand, Ekomind and Mem Chip installed means you have six MU (5 +1)
Theo + Sympathy and 8 credits is a hand size of 10 (8 +2)
So then:
Ṣifr + Sandbug(20 corp credits) on a wall of static is it
Based on those scenarios, the strength would be >0, but I’ll need to consider it further. It’s a little different because SIFR is a triggered ability interacting with a constant effect (versus two constant effects interacting with each other). I’m not sure if it changes things, but worth thought.
That’s a good point. My Eko/Theo examples are all constant effects. Eko + Bad times results in a reducing MU by 2, not Eko overriding it at setting it back to hand size.
What would put the nail in the coffin here is if we had a triggered ability that sets, along with a constant ability that modifies (IE: reverse of the Bad Times + Ekomind scenario). Can’t think of anything off hand for that.
But I agree that the evidence seems to support modifications being applied after setting in general (thus Sandburg applying after SIFR).
EDIT: I came to this conclusion under the notion that SIFR said set, not reduce. Discussion below to clarify.
If it does that’s genuinely unintuitive and could be worded significantly better on the card. But it would also make Sifr less powerful so…I don’t know. What’s the lesser of two evils in this situation?
It might be an important distinction; reduce does kind of infer a sort of variable modification (like Parasite), so this could be two modifications interacting with each other (I thought it said “set”).
Its still order of operations dependent though, like + and * in math. (3 + 3) * 3 != 3 + (3 * 3)
Parasite is still at the same level as Patch/Bronze/Sandburg and applied simultaneously.
So applying Base, Sandy, Sifr is still different than Base, Sifr, Sandy.
I lean towards the ice is at 0 strength (Sifr applied last) but I do not have anything to back it up.
Right, it’s not associative. I’m just saying it might not be the case that SIFR is applied first, given that it isn’t a strict setting (akin to Ekomind/Theo), but is rather a modification (akin to Parasite).
I would be willing to wager that, given that, you have something like:
Initial State: Sandburg unrezzed with 20 credits. Runner has SIFR installed and runs on server containing Vanilla.
Rez Vanilla (Str = 0).
Rez Sandburg (Str = 4).
Encounter and activate SIFR (Str reduced by 4 to 0; Str = 0).
Step 1 and 2 could be swapped. The important thing is SIFR happens after them.
On the flip side, the answer would be Str > 0 if the corp managed to find a way to increase the strength between the runner activating SIFR and the runner breaking routines. SIFR will apply a reduction when activated, but it isn’t a constant effect; later changes to the strength likely won’t allow SIFR to change its effect.
As stated before, not 100% on this. SIFR does say lowered to 0, so it might be treated as a setting (like Theo/Ekomind), or it might be a modification that forces the value to stay at 0 for the duration of the effect. Worth pinging Damon for sure.
