I’ve been waiting until the pack was released to ping @jakodrako again, as well as Damon:
On a separate topic, can you use bad plublicity to avoid a tag from Security Nexus with NACH? Nexus says:
Once per turn, when you encounter a piece of ice, you may force the Corp to “trace5– If successful, give the Runner 1 tag and end the run. If unsuccessful, the Runner bypasses the currently encountered ice.”
(emphasis mine)
This came up at a Store Championship and I ruled that you could, because the tag and ETR either come up sequentially as printed (and you’re still in the run) or it’s simultaneous (and the runner gets the choice of order on their turn). This bring up the more general question of how to sequence multiple effects connected by “and”.
I would expect you could NACH + BP the tag of a subroutine that reads: “Give the runner a tag and end the run”, so Nexus would be the same.
“give the runner 1 tag and end the run” occurs during the run (it must in order to end it), the BP credit is available to spend on NACH. The ruling was correct.
I don’t know if you can say “and” effects are truly communitive (IE: A and B ?= B and A), but, at the very least, they’re part off the same effect. A doesn’t resolve fully before B evaluates.
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If it was phrased, “end the run and give the runner 1 tag” would it make a difference? I’m pretty certain that BP can be used for NACH, but I’m curious to the why.
Edit: It looks like you added to your post. That’s an interesting point on the effects being linked and makes sense to me. Do we have a similar known interaction?
It would not make a difference; effects that have “and” in them are multiple effects being evaluated for resolution at the same time.
IE: for Nexus, the effect coming at you (on unsuccessful trace) is:
Take 1 tag and ETR
Since a portion of that effect is giving you a tag, you can use NACH. Note that this is still during the run because avoid effects interrupt the effect that’s occurring.
If it was instead wrote:
ETR and take 1 tag.
The answer would be the same. The effect coming at you is to end your run and give a tag. You interrupt that effect with NACH to avoid the tag, then the effect resolves.
The reason I say I’m unsure if it’s communitive is due to resolution order when the effect does fire. But prevent/avoid effects occur before all that, so we don’t need to worry about it. So, for the purposes of prevent/avoid specifically, you could definitely say “and” is communitive (A and B = B and A).
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This doesn’t exactly help answer the theoretical concerns raised here about ‘and’ effects, but I wanted to point out that NACH is also an ‘Avoid’ effect – so I have little doubt that BP can be used here, as it has to resolve simultaneously with the Nexus effect. [Edit: @ironcache beat me to it – but yes, I agree the key thing for this specific interaction is ‘avoid’].
If it were a different kind of triggered effect, like “The first time you take a tag each turn, you may spend 2cr to draw a card,” I’m not quite as confident you could use BP. I don’t have a specific ruling about timing here, but I think there were some suggestions in the past that ‘and’ effects should be treated as single, indivisible units.
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Your hypothetical example is exactly what I was trying to get across with the mention of communitivity in the first post. I’m not 100% confident in how something like that would work out either, but I am quite certain that NACH + BP vs. Nexus works in favor of being able to use the BP.
Just noticed this. I don’t have any precedent for this off hand (I’ve been pretty busy as of the past week or so and haven’t had my usual availability to browse for the evidence to support answers). If anyone has something, feel free to chime in.
Geist, Forger and Snare! is a pretty close example.
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It is a good example. Do we have a ruling on it? I did a brief search and couldn’t find one.
Now that I think about it, the Account Siphon/NACH ruling probably gives us all the info we need on ‘and’ effects resolving as a single unit for timing purposes. If the clauses on either half of an ‘and’ resolved separately, you would be able to use those credits for an avoid effect. Since you can’t, this suggests the whole effect resolves simultaneously.
I have an itch in the back of my head that says this could cause other timing problems down the road with nested triggers firing from separate parts of an ‘and’ effect, but for the moment it makes sense. (And I think, given the AS/NACH ruling, you should just treat those triggers as you would any other simultaneous trigger, but I haven’t thought through the ramifications of that.)
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I thought we did (that Geist, with 2 cards in hand and a Forger out, can live after hitting a Snare! by avoiding a tag). But I can’t find it either.
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AS + NACH is good. I think that can be used for the Nexus NACH BP example, and also to reinforce that Geist + Forger + 2 in hand can survive Snare! (which I also thought we had a previous ruling for).
From the FAQ:
Q: Can the Runner use New Angeles City Hall to avoid the tags from an Account Siphon if they have 0 credits when the ability resolves?
A: No. The gaining of the credits and the taking of the tags resolves at the same time, so the Runner cannot use those credits to avoid the tags.
Since it’s simultaneous, you evaluate the tag at the same time as the ETR for NACH + BP vs. Nexus (as ETR hasn’t resolved). Since it’s simultaneous, you evaluate the damage at the same time as the tag for Forger in the Geist 2 card Snare! scenario (letting you survive).
I’d say this one is wrapped up nicely, at least for the examples presented.
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If I’m reading that right, it’s what I guessed at in my latest post on the matter? When SIFR is activated, it checks the strength as activated, and reduces it by that much (to 0). Any strength modifiers that occur after that would allow it to go above 0.
It seems so:
After some confusion:
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I’m looking for a reference so I can understand why a rule is as it is.
On Slack yesterday, someone told me that the following was not a valid play.
Corp has Executive Boot Camp and Adonis Campaign unrezzed on board.
1.1 - Corp rezes EBC.
1.2 - (Start of turn) Corp uses EBC conditional ability to rez Adonis for -1 credit cost. Then, since it is still the start of turn, the Adonis conditional fires.
Person on Slack said this not legal because the Adonis was not rezed at the beginning of 1.2. The person wrote that you line up all the conditional abilities that meet the trigger at the moment the triggering conditional occurs and resolve them in any order, but that any new conditional abilities that become active in this process are not resolved.
I’ve been trying to find where that is explained in the rules or FAQ, but have failed in my search.
Sorry, just trying to get my head clear on this. Does this mean that Quicksand will always be at least 1 str with a Sifr in play, barring any other strength raising/lowering cards?
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That’s not exactly the correct way of wording it but they’re correct, if you look at the timing structure of a turn there’s one moment (1.2) where the start of turn event fires. That triggers EBC and allows the install of the Adonis, but by the time the Adonis has installed the event has already fired. The Adonis never “sees” the start of turn.
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