As far as I know, this is all precedent set out by lots of rulings on timing windows. Examples from the top of my head:
Personal Evolution won’t deal a Net damage if corp scores an Agenda while Employee Strike in play.
When you install Daily Casts off of The Supplier, you don’t also get to trigger Daily Casts.
This means there’s like a 3 step result to resolving abilities at any triggering condition
Timing window occurs
Trigger all relevant abilities
Resolve all abilities triggered from step 2
Anything that comes into play or becomes active during step 3 has already missed step 2, and so it will not trigger.
@FightingWalloon there was a really big discussion a few months ago when this was all ironed out by @jakodrako. The results of those discussions and talks with the designers resulted in this ANCUR article which lays out what I just summarized with more depth and reasoning. @ironcachecreated a thread specifically to discuss this portion of the rules, which IMO is worth a read.
Thanks for the links. I did not find them in my own search. I’ll read them over.
So this is different than the Medical Research Grant/Team Sponsorship case because in this case the trigger is on the Medical Research Grant even though it has no target until the Team Sponsorship fires.
To clarify on the Quicksand SIFR interaction, it will be at strength 0 between when SIFR’s ability resolves and when Quicksand’s ability resolves, but after Quicksand resolves, it will be strength 1.
This is an important consideration because Parasite can still result in a kill before Quicksand can trigger.
I realize – especially given his earlier replies in the thread – that @jakodrako might not have thought this all the way through, but his answer to the particular way that you asked that question has much bigger implications than for SIFR. Specifically, the conclusion suggests that the bonus from Sandburg is not applied as a single unit (e.g. +4 for 20 credits) but rather as discrete bonuses for each set of 5 credits (e.g. x4 instances of (+1 for 5 credits)), each with its own separate timing. Is that previously confirmed/accurate?
Not to prematurely derail this, but if that is accurate, the interaction with SIFR is going to get really messy in a hurry. E.g. Corp on Sandburg + 16 credits when a Caduceus (Str 6) is encountered. SIFR is used (Str 0). Corp dumps 2 credits into the Cad trace (still Str 0), which then succeeds, putting corp back up at 17 credits. Is that a ‘new’ +1, putting the Cad at Str 1?
I think, rather than separate instances for Sandburg, it’s that both cards modify by a certain amount, and SIFR’s amount is the strength of the ICE when its ability resolves. So, in the example you give, it would still be strength 0 at the end:
Initial State: Caduceus rezzed (STR = 3), modified by Sandburg with 16 credits (+3 mod). Runner w/ SIFR is encountering this ICE.
Activate SIFR. ICE strength is currently 6 (3 and a +3 mod), so SIFR’s effect is to apply a -6 mod.
Facesmash into subs. First sub fires, and corp spends 2 credits into trace (now at 14). Sandburg’s mod changes from +3 to +2, resulting in a strength of (3 +2 -6 = -1).
Runner lets the first trace succeed. Corp now has 17 credits. Sandburg’s mod changes from +2 to +3, resulting in a strength of (3 +3 -6 = 0).
Precisely. Research Grant says “when scored you may” do the effect, so it’s able to be triggered even if another Research Grant isn’t in play. Team Sponsorship triggers on a simultaneous trigger, and then you resolve them in the order of your choice (Team Sponsorship first so that Research Grant resolving is useful).
Hmm, Sifr would’ve been more clear if it had used something similar Eater’s wording e.g. the strength of that ICE cannot be more than 0 for the remainder of the encounter.
Yes, that’s mechanically different from how it appears to work but to me the given explanation of how it works is, well, fiddly and messy as it seems like the ICE strength can vary in meaningful ways mid-run e.g.:
Ninja vs Negotiator + Sandburg - Runner has 1 credit, Corp has 14. Runner uses Sifr and is intending to just break the “Trash 1 program” subroutine allowing the +2 creds, but the the +2 creds triggers first and so bumps it up a notch meaning it’s now STR 1 and so the runner can’t break the second subroutine.
Have I understood that right as far as we know? (Edit: nope, see next post)
It seems like a fair few complications are avoided by no rezzing being allowed after encounter starts and Runner going first so paid abilities probably not getting fired by corp (e.g. there’s no point rezzing Corporate Troubleshooter, but saving the ability for the next phase). However, An Offer You Can’t Refuse flips this on its head and cards like IT Department come into play - now you can’t just look at the board state and the cards played, the sequence in which they were played becomes very significant, which to me is clunky for this particular kind of interaction (again, if I had indeed understood it right)
Ah my mistake actually, the Runner will have already broken the Trash Program subroutine by the time the +2 creds fires, so that’s not an issue in that case.
That’s fair, and I’ve modified the post to reflect that. However, it doesn’t change the point I was getting at.
On a tangent (responding more generally), I’m missing the point of conflict for SIFR/Sandburg. You figure out the strength of the ICE when the ability resolves, and subtract that much strength from the ICE as the effect. SIFR works similar to many other effects in the game; observe some element of board state, affect board state based on it. Sandburg’s effect is free to wobble around after that (as a constant ability). It seems intuitive to me, is there something I’m missing, or a reason this flow doesn’t work?
While @jakodrako 's response to the question about str going negative wasn’t a hard no, his answer (“An effect leaving the game is not the same as a reverse effect being enacted.”) seemed to suggest it wasn’t a clear “yes,” either.
To be clear, I think the cases where the distinction would ever matter are currently limited to AOYCR runs. Otherwise, SIFR is going to activate and then presumably the runner is going to use their first paid window to break anything they want to break. But forget the fluctuating Sandburg, for a moment - let’s say the corp is on Sandburg + Troubleshooter (this is a world where D4V1D was never printed, obvs) and dumps 10 creds into the troubleshooter during an AOYCR run after a SIFR proc. If the ice is going to negative str, it seems clear that it ends up at 8str. If not - if the Sandburg effect ‘leaves but is not reversed’ - presumably it ends up at 10str?
I think this is more of a situation where before Sifr there was an open and frankly previously irrelevent question. Do triggered abilities that have a time component (ie. end or run) basically set up a conditional effect for that time and thus reevaluated when necessary, are they set when fired and expire at the given time, or are these conditional effects handled in a straight time ordered stack. This is the first card, or at least first card that may be actually played, where that distinction is actually somewhat relevant, as previously you could have believed anyone (or others that I can’t think of right now) of those ‘core’ theories and still be able to make the right effective call.
We know it isn’t the first based on Jako’s answer to my linked tweet (Strength goes to 1, so SIFR can’t be constantly trying to set it to 0). I’m leaning towards the second thing, but I also am unsure exactly what the third entails.
I want to say 8. There’s no way I was going to fit that example in a tweet, but I did send off this:
The answer to this (if it’s -7, at least) will let us answer your given example (as being 8), if I’m understanding correctly? If it isn’t -7, likely the answer to your example is 10.
Okay so it turns out I was wrong; aside from Jako saying that it doesn’t go to -7, Damon specifically had already mentioned that it’s not a negative modifier, but rather an ability that sets to zero.
Still trying to figure out how it actually works though, given that. Seems like letting it be a negative modifier would save so much confusion…
Quick question that came up during league last night, I have a rezzed Chetana, unrezzed Batty, and a scored House of Knives with a token on it. The runner runs on the Chetana and and breaks the subs, and proceeds to approach the next piece of unrezzed ice. Instead of rezzing the ice I rez Batty and fire him. I win the Psi game and target the “Do a net damage for each card in the runner’s hand” and win that Psi game.
I have a kill opportunity but my opponent also has a credit on Net Mercur and could use it to boost an ice breaker and draw a card. My thinking was that the Batty firing, the subroutine resolving, and me spending the HoK token are all in the same window and he wouldn’t have an opportunity to draw the card with Net Mercur but we wanted to be sure.
Correct. You have priority to do any and all paid abilities you wish before the runner can respond. If the will die in that window, only prevent effects can save them.