Official Rules Question Thread

Has already been answered, you cannot.

Oups, sorry. :flushed:
Thanks for the answer.

One more question (not already answered here, I think).

Allele Repression can be advanced.
Trash: Swap 1 card in HQ with 1 card in Archives for each advancement token on Allele Repression.

What happen when you swap cards ? Will the card put in Archives be in the same state as the one you took or will they all be facedown ?

I believe the cards go into archives face down

How does this jive with the ‘when you trash a card as a cost, the ability still resolves based on the game state that existed when the card was trash’ ruling? I can kinda see a way, but it feels messy.

I think it’s a bit more subtle than that.

Street Peddler trashes, and that triggers hosted cards to trash too. Normally a triggered effect from the first action (e.g. the Street Peddler cost) should be resolved before continuing to the second action (e.g. the Street Peddler effect).

The weirdness with Street Peddler seems to be that the usual triggered effect for trashing hosted cards is pushed back to after the installation effect. The usual trigger cascade rules don’t apply.

I think (since you aren’t assumed to be installing cards from the heap*?). Someone correct me if I’m wrong!

*Which would actually cause further issues since a trashed card isn’t the same ‘instance’ of a card, so even though a card is hosted when the cost is paid, so is liable to be installed, the card that would exist in the heap wouldn’t be the same card, so the instance of the card that would exist (in the heap) at the time of the installation effect wouldn’t be a card that was hosted on Street Peddler at the time of the cost being paid, even those it’s the same physical bit of cardboard!

The way is Schrödinger cards ? :laughing:

EDIT : first I thought of it as a joke but since we have cards that are neither rezz nor unrezz, why coulnd’t we have cards that are considered to be both in play and in heap/archives ?

There is no way that Bako ruling is right for the game.

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Rant on:

Out of curiosity, is anyone else getting tired of trying to follow all these rules updates and inconsistencies? For instance, Allele Repression can return itself when used, because after you pay its cost, it is in the archives when it resolves. Yet Street Peddler works completely different for, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason. The ruling on Street Peddler only makes sense if it was trashed as an effect of its ability, after you installed a card from it…but that’s not how it was printed, and thus, not how it should work, barring errata.

OK, rant off.

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You’re not the first person to express this concern, but I just don’t get what the alarm is about. what’s the abuse case here? Elaborate ICE setups with exacting standards for which cards are rezzed or not, which can be entirely and irrevocably torn down just to provoke- assuming best-case scenario for the corp - a harmless jack-out.

Moreover, while in these (extremely rare) situations the flow of play may get a bit un-intuitive, what is the better ruling here? This is actually a pretty straightforward standard for handling these weird situations; I’d be interested to hear what this ruling “should” have been.

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The ruling should have been that you continue from where the piece of ice you were approaching / encountering would have been had it not been trashed.

edit: unrelatedly, this ruling makes Bako’s flavor text amusing. “curious feeling of Déjà Vu” indeed

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From rules point of view, “after passing a piece of ice, the Runner approaches the next most-innermost position” is a perfectly fine rule, so far it covers all different cases (including Bako shenanigans). Imo it could’ve used better wording though, I mean I use “next-innermost” every day :smile:

“After passing a piece of ice, the Runner approaches the ice installed in the next position that is closer to the server.”

I’m not sure why the Street Peddler “ruling” has so many people upset. A) It is very obvious by how the card is worded what it does, and B) the card would do absolutely nothing if it didn’t work the way that it does.

The problem is people are taking the ruling further than intended. The point of the ruling is not that Street Peddler’s ability resolves before it is trashed. It still works just like anything else in that regard - trash Street Peddler, then resolve its effect. The point of the ruling is that Street Peddler, and more importantly the game, know which three cards were installed on Street Peddler, so the reference “one of the cards installed on Street Peddler” can still resolve because it is known which cards those were based on the game state at the time of trigger. This is consistent and logical with other trash abilities. How else would Incubator, Gorman Drip, GRNDL Refinery, Reversed Accounts, Allele Repression, Corporate Troubleshooter, etc etc work? They’re not resolving before they’re trashed, but they do know - based on referencing the game state at the time of trigger - how big their effect is.

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how is this different? in the archer->bako->bako example, you do continue from where the ice that you were approaching would have been if it hadn’t been trashed - the second innermost position- onto the ice in the first innermost position. to avoid facing the archer again, the ruling would have to be “All previously installed ICE is linked by a friendly daisy chain, so that mean old corps can’t trick you into facing the same security twice!”

I’m really sorry, that was overly combative. back on track.

If this ruling were just about bako, it might be workable, but this has to handle way more (potentially) complicated situations with cards like crick, architect, batty, wormhole,etc. To me this seems really straightforward - when the ice you’re on gets blown up, you default to that ICE’s current position. not its relative position to any other ICE that you may or may not have already passed and may or may not have been installed or rezzed on that server before batty or crick or whatever went off.

In Archer > Bako > Bako, if the Bako you were approaching/encountering hadn’t disappeared then the server would be Archer > Bako. So you would approach the server next. The same ruling works just fine for Crick et al. I don’t understand what is so objectionable about using relative position instead of absolute position.

But why Lukas said “Otherwise the hosted cards would get trashed before it resolves.” ???

Also, my first question was about Street Peddler & Exile. Since I can return the Allele Repression to HQ, that means that if I install a program from Street Peddler with Exile, I draw 1 card. Right ?

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so, in the Archer > Bako > Bako example given to lukas, the middle bako is pulled while the runner is encountering it, and in the same window the innermost bako is pulled, leaving only Archer > Server, with archer in the innermost and as-of-yet unpassed position.

as I said, if bako were the only card that could do this, then yeah, relative position would work fine. The issue is with card like crick (or a wormhole or batty firing a crick or archtiect sub) is that the “common sense” idea that you shouldn’t have to re-encounter the archer doesn’t apply as cleanly if the ICE sliding into that new spot is freshly installed.

for example: you are running crick>quandary and can’t break the crick, and the crick installs a totally new ICE over the server in the innermost position, destroying both crick and quandary. how does relative position help now? under lukas’s ruling, the way forward is really simple, since you simply go off absolute position. with relative position, you have no clear way forward, as there are no that you’ve passed but also none of the ice that you hadn’t passed. now you need another ruling to say “all newly installed ice are assumed to be installed outside relative to any trashed ice. unless they’re installed by midori. or some other card with an installing or switching effect yet to be seen.”

the rule using absolute position is a super clear one that paves the way for a variety of new mechanics to be implemented without confusion; a hypothetical relative position rule feels slightly more intuitive in extreme edge cases, but establishes a fresh new rules-quagmire for cards to get caught in.

OK, sorry, this is my last rant on the matter. TLDR is that this ruling is super easy to implememnt and almost impossible to exploit.

Also…so what if the hosted cards got trashed before one of them got installed? Street Peddler would remember which cards were under it, and thus eligible to be installed by its ability. I don’t understand why Lukas even brings it up. It’s the same reasoning that allows things like Gorman Drip to work…the game looks back to see how many virus counters it had right before it was trashed.

My question would be: If Gorman Drip can look back to see how many virus counters it had on it, why can’t Street Peddler look back to see what cards it was hosting? I don’t see what is fundamentally different between those two examples.

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The runner would approach the server next. I don’t understand how that ruling would be difficult to understand, or what “fresh new rules-quagmire” using relative position instead of absolute position opens up (Midori, I guess??).

Lukas answered this on his twitter today: