RIP Test Run + Scavenge.
I agree with MasterAir, this ruling does not make sense in that case.
Seems like an exploitable rule to get some information.
As someone from the french forum pointed out, are you sure that this rule is about “additional cost” too ?
This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of paying play, install, or rez costs or triggering any further abilities.
Does this sentence targets only play cost, install cost and rez cost or does it target every kind of play/install/rez costs, thus including the additional one ?
I asked the same question some time ago in this thread, but answered it myself.
“As an additional cost to play…” is still part of the “cost to play”.
Play costs = credit cost + additional costs
Same with Rez costs (e.g. Archer).
I don’t know of any card that has an additional cost to install though.
Non-Resolvable Abilities
Conditional abilities resolve after meeting their trigger condition. However, if the game state advances past the trigger condition due to simultaneous effects or a chain reaction, then the triggered ability cannot be resolved.
Example: The Runner hits a Tollbooth that she can bypass with Femme Fatale. Both cards have the same trigger condition, but because it is the Runner’s turn the Femme Fatale resolves first. The ice is bypassed, and since the game state has progressed to a new step of the run, the trigger condition for Tollbooth is no longer valid.
When the runner ‘passes all ice protecting a server’ with Awakening Center and Caprice Nisei in it, and the corp chooses to trigger the Awakening Center first, to me it seems that initiating an encounter with a bioroid ice should count as “advancing the game state past the trigger condition due to a chain reaction”, and thus Caprise’s trigger should not resolve after the necounter ends.
Same with Archangel’s ability, I’d expect it to remove any triggers from the stack.
Same #2 with extra runs from Doppelganger and Jack Sinclair.
Could you explain to me why am I wrong?
P.S. Are there any situations (other than bypassing and Film Critic) where this “Non-Resolvable Abilities” rule apply and cancels the triggers?
Chronos v Titanium.
Ok thank you.
It just feels wrong that triggered effects wait for encounters and whole runs to end before resolving.
Some effects wait for the all turn to end before resolving (like Joshua B.). 
This is different, it’s a specific “floating” or “delayed” effect, I can live with that one. I’m talking about two abilities that trigger off the same event, one starts a run and another one waits patiently for it to complete.
While we’re at it, this one is from ANCUR:
If the Runner is tagged and makes a successful run, both Doppelgänger and Dedicated Response Team trigger simultaneously. The Runner, being the current player, has to make another run before taking the 2 meat damage. If the runner makes another successful run they will trigger Dedicated Response Team again taking 2 more meat mamage. However, if the second run is to trash the Dedicated Response Team, then the Runner takes 0 meat damage after the run ends.
What if during the second run the runner manages to lose the tag, will he still take damage for the first run? How is this different from trashing DRT?
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To be fair, this is how it has worked all along, it is just now formalized in the official rules text. We’ve had the “effect must change game state” rule for quite some time.
I have discussed this with Lukas in the past. I’ve just asked him if I can release information from our previous conversations.
I think this is another case of normal behaviour is accidentally cheating. Scavenge seems like it’s written for refreshing limited use programs and installing things properly from Test Run.
I’d like to hear examples of where the ‘actions must change the game state or cannot be used’ rule is needed.
As Raziel said. Also Ice on AC are not protecting the server, if that’s what you were thinking. You’re still at the same step as after the encounter with a bioroid, and conditions have been met, so you can fire caprice.
What I mean is, “the game state advances past the trigger condition” is a very broad and general definition. The FAQ gives an example of advancing past a certain step during a run, but to me, any encounter or run seems to advance the game state past where it was before - I mean, if shuffling two cards in the stack qualifies as changing the game state, then certainly I’m past the “beginning of turn” if I’ve already made a whole run using Jack Sinclair!
I’d love for that “Non-Resolvable Abilities” rule to be more specific, like “if the run advances past the step that triggered this ability” or some such, if that’s the intent.
‘Game state advances past the trigger condition’ does mean the step that caused the trigger.
Femme is the most obvious, because Bypass takes you out of the Encounter step. If there were anything that took you out of the Beginning of Turn step, it could nullify your Daily Cast or Aesop’s triggers.
I think the only thing that interacts at the same step as Caprice and could take you out of that step would be Copycat? I can’t help but feel there was some weird Jinteki card that screwed with where you were after passing the ICE, too…? (Susanoo and Bullfrog and Cell Portal all mess with where you are during the Encounter.)
[quote=“mplain, post:1193, topic:1437”]
to me, any encounter or run seems to advance the game state past where it was before - I mean, if shuffling two cards in the stack qualifies as changing the game state, then certainly I’m past the “beginning of turn” if I’ve already made a whole run using Jack Sinclair!
[/quote]I think the confusion here is conflating “changing the game state” with “advancing the game state past a trigger condition,” which are not the same two things.
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“changing the game state” is pertinent to the conversation others are having regarding cards like scavenge, and determining whether or not a card effect can legally be played or used.
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These types of changes happen all the time, often many times within the same trigger (for example, many things can happen “at the start of your turn” that change the game state but do nothing to advance it past the trigger of “begin of turn”)
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“advancing the game state past a triggering condition” is a specific type of change to the game-state, and refers to the game moving on to a step that is specifically distinct from and after the trigger.
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for example, passing an ICE and approaching the next is distinct from, and always takes place after, encountering it - so in the case of a femme bypass the game-state has moved on to a new phase that is specifically past the “when encountered” trigger.
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In your example above (and the others given) of Jak Sinclair, a free extra run is nowhere on the turn’s timing structure - the “begin of turn” trigger on Jak’s text creates this run out of whole cloth: it does not exist on the timing structure of turn, outside of the “when your turn begins” trigger, during which the entire run takes place.
the most important takeaway of all this is to remember not to get too hung up on the language, and remember that triggers like these are specifically timed phases that can contain anything a card puts in them. While it might seem like common sense to say “after a jak run, it’s clearly not the start of my turn anymore” in the game “start of your turn” refers to the “start of your turn” trigger, and any and all effects that take place within it it- for example, Jak’s run.
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Nah, there’s no confusion between the two, it’s just that both things are rather vague and unintuitive and could be worded better.
The structure of a turn/run isn’t even in the rulebook, it’s just a chart in the FAQ added to make our lives easier. So strictly speaking, just by reading the rulebook there’s no way of figuring out that bypassing ‘advances the game state’ but Jak Sinclair’s extra run doesn’t. That’s why I’m saying that it could be defined more clearly.
I’m just thinking, since Jacob is in [some form of] direct communication with Lukas, and Lukas is leaving his position and seems to want to clear any leftover messes (as evident by his tweet that led to the new version of the FAQ), then maybe we could ask Lukas to define these things a bit better.
Timing Structure of a Run: Page 33.
Timing Structure of a Turn: Page 32.
And here’s a link to the rulebook: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrunner/support/android-netrunner-core-rules.pdf
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Oh wow, sorry, my bad! I’ve always been referring to the Rules section on dtdb for the basic rulebook. I stand corrected! =_=