OG players return to the game, thoughts. feelings. emotions

Let me qualify a little bit, i realize that reads like I am underestimating the game. I was trying to make a complicated point and also not be long-winded about it so forgive me.

I think we actually agree, to an extent. There are certain small efficiencies that a better player takes over a weaker player. When, how and if to bluff or call a bluff are included as part of these defining decisions.

I would LOVE to interview a top player about these points before I continued trying to say what I am trying to say. If there is one reading this, would you be willing to answer a few questions that I would love to write up. I think about this all the time. I imagine that the highest levels are far more about number-crunching in deck design/anticipating the meta and the game themselves are straight-forward affairs with maybe a few critical turns where the decisions are actually really tough, but what do I know?

I agree the Worlds final was a perfect example of what a bad game looks like. The game that I was thinking of was actually one from the final 4. Whichever game though, those guys rarely slow down to take a breath. Also, if we want to trash on it, the announcers were awful and only seemed to be vaguely interested in talking about the game itself and seemed to mostly just tangent about games they remembered themselves having or whatever.

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The other side to randomizing with a dice is that, if the corp isn’t trying to stack the odds by strategically placing their agendas in their hand, the runner can gain an advantage by paying attention to where their last access was, where the mandatory draw card is, if the corp shuffled, etc.

I’ve definitely had people play Celebrity Gift and then neglect to shuffle before the next HQ access, it doesn’t necessarily occur to people who are perhaps not used to competitive card games. Or are used to different ones where hand shuffling isn’t tactically relevant. Hearthstone is kind of an interesting counter example; the draw order of cards in hand is known so good players can deduce what’s in their opponent’s hand based on how long they’ve held onto it (“that’s been in their hand all game…it must be an expensive or situational card”). But I digress, severely.

Okay…

@BubbaTheGoat @qqq I am reprimanding you both. Address the points the other poster is making rather than making personal attacks. I personally agree with dice rolls for HQ but that doesn’t matter while I am wearing my mod hat for this post. Different players at different levels of competitiveness get enjoyment out of different aspects of the game and it’s not appropriate to attack someone for being more or less competitive than you.

And for crying out loud, everyone, don’t make chains of replies accusing the other person of getting too hot-headed; just use the flag button and let the conversation get back on-topic.

That said.

@qqq. Listen up.

Attacking someone’s sexual life because they got in a forum argument with you is COMPLETELY out of line. I urge you to revisit our community guidelines and think about why your post is an embarrassment upon the Stimhack community.

If I EVER see that kind of behaviour again, I will ban you on the spot.

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Dude, that’s not bluffing, that’s just low-level card shark nonsense. The bluffing that goes on in this game is so far beyond that! A “no rez” that was just a fraction of a second too fast can make you suspect the card behind that unrezzed ice is a snare. A furrowing of the brow and nigh-undetectable sigh of relief when you access a Hedge Fund in HQ can make you suspect that there’s agendas in there, and trick you into running it 3 more times when it’s completely clear and there’s 6 points in archives. Holding up your hand in a way that makes your Snare stick out a tiny little bit more in the hope that you’ll trick your opponent into taking it is amateur hour compared to the stuff good players have pulled on me!
The keyword in this game is respect: know that you’re playing against intelligent people, and assume they won’t fall for cheap tricks.

Yeah obviously if the corp is on game point you generally have to run, but, like you said, sometimes the right decision is not to. However, it’s always just bluffing and intuition that’ll tell you not to run, there are board state considerations that can inform that decision. Stuff like how often have you been runnnig HQ and R&D, what the state of your economy is (can the corp hope to bankrupt you and create a scoring window by forcing you to run the remote every turn?), how many points THE RUNNER is on, all that can help you estimate how likely the card in the remote is to be an agenda. Also what your own best route to victory is - if you have a medium with 8 counters on it (back when medium was a thing), then you don’t need to play the remote game at all, you can just run R&D 4 times and see all of it. So sometimes you might see a runner do something counterintuitive and it might look they did it on pure intuition, but there was a lot of calculation behind it.
Having said that, some people I’ve played with seem able to read me like a book, I swear they have ESP.

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Bye!

(Personally I think jinteki.net is in a moral grey area. I only own a few packs and one old core but I play with whatever I want on there. Card mechanics are patented and the art is copyrighted, but does this count as fair use assuming the site is not making a profit from it? The categorical imperative says ffg would go broke if no one bought the physical cards, but in reality you always expect a product will have a mix of free and paid users and you make it anyway).

The datastream slipped away, and it felt like being born for a second time, in only you could remember the first. A rush of air fills the lungs to bursting, and you gasp it out, coughing and choking as the dim lights of the room shine with the brilliance of a thousand suns.

Influence, two. Install, one. It’s not O. It’s Au. Revoir.

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I can’t count how many games I won like that. I think you miss something.

What’s more hacker than than making something free to all instead of making it about the profit for a few? It’s what the game itself is all about.

If they wanted to make a game about a renegade hacker who pays the corp whatever the corp thinks is fair and they both go about their business, maybe the audience that game would attract would be more down with the capitalist status quo. Burn your money, delete your facebook, free the weig. :wink:

If you don’t buy for your favorite things, that wasn’t free art. If you made it a job, you would have been obligated to sell something. FFG isn’t Disney, you know.

Same story btw, minus 20h.

Really though, any art you don’t pay for is free art.

Not if you allow yourself to copy stuff based on that imo. That’s why CC BY-NC licences were made for.

Or, allow people to copy your music and make a commercial use about it.
Creator’s will have its importance. If you see your stuff made with love released by Sony with a crappy editing not crediting you, you would be mad like any creator would be.

We could quibble about the definition of the word “free”, but we get something and don’t have to pay for it. It’s pretty Anarch and pretty Criminal. It’s sort of Shaper, too.

5/3 Agenda: Netrunner
When Agenda is stolen by Runner, Runner must defend Free Culture Theory on message board for for two clicks. Ignore this effect if Runner is Republican.

That agenda have not a single chance to be put in any corporation deck, hahaha.

Quite a good description of the actual problem you know.

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Is there really an actual problem though?

FF seems to be doing fine financially and there may be a very good chance that people being able to play on J-Net for free overall improves sales of their product.

Is it up to us on this message board to debate the internal financial models of a card game just because we enjoy playing it? Seems like quite a burden for us to take on.

Discussion of how players who don’t necessarily have the financial means to keep up with the card base can still play the game online is relevant and on-topic.

Urging other players to stop giving FFG money, however, is not a stance we tolerate in this community. If you have a grand vision of pay-what-you-want economics, this is not the place to pursue it.

The test for fair use varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and I don’t know where jnet is hosted, but in general a court would look at whether jnet is a transformative use of the original work, what kind of thing the original work is, how much of the original work jnet is using, and how it affects the market of the original work. In the first 3 tests jnet definitely fails, as it’s exactly the same game, it doesn’t attempt to create a variant of the game, Netrunner is a commercial product that you can’t play without the cards it reproduces, and jnet uses all the cards and all the art. The 4th test is where fair use could be argued, as organised play is a big draw to the game, and Jnet doesn’t allow you to participate in it. It’s not like you can take your laptop to worlds and play on there. Moreover, FFG know that there are keen players who live in areas without other local players, and only get to play in person once a month when they can make a 2 hour drive to a tournament. Jnet allows those folks to practice for those tournaments, test out deck ideas, and maintain their interest in the game during the gaps between tournaments, which, can be argued, helps FFG’s business as it keeps those players who don’t get to play in person much still buying cards.

But then people like the OP come along and they say “nah, this is enough for me, I don’t need to play in person if I have this”, and that sort of thing gives an argument for the big corporate lawyers to say “see? It’s not fair use, as it clearly diminishes the potential market for the original!”

@qqq I’m a big copyleft guy, I’m a paid up member of the ORG and the EFF, and I believe copyright law has hugely overreached in recent decades. I believe that a lot of things currently classified in law as copyright infringement should be decriminalised, and studies have shown that, far from piracy killing the entertainment industry as the copyright mafia claim, consumers spend more on movies and music in countries in which file sharing is legal. I personally think it’s ok to use jnet without owning any of the cards, since there’s always the potential of you turning into a paying customer at some point in the future, and it also keeps jnet populated with more warm bodies for the rest of us to play with. But crowing with pride about the fact that you haven’t bought any of the cards, declaring that you see no reason why you’d ever buy the cards, and saying that those of us who own them are suckers, that kind of shit is crossing the line in a big way. Not just morally, because FFG need to sell bits of cardboard to keep developing the game we all love; not just because you’re coming across as an #$#!! by calling those of us supporting the game with our money idiots for shelling out cash when we could just play online for free; but most importantly of all, because you’re literally giving ammunition for anyone who might try to shut down Jnet in the future! You’re literally screwing things up for all of us (including yourself) by making this argument!

I don’t personally think ill of you for not buying in, but please shut up about it. You’re fucking it up for everyone, and, honestly, its not as cool or cyberpunk as you think it is. FFG is barely bigger than a mom and pop operation, man of their employees play on Jnet, and its lead dev came 2nd at worlds once iirc. So you’re not exactly pulling one over an all-powerful megacorp here. If the REAL megacorp (Hasbro, whom FFG license the game from) decided to flex their muscles, Jnet would be shut down in a heartbeat.

(Also, you really should buy in, playing in person is a lot more fun, but that’s a different topic.)

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@CryofFrustration
I don’t think I used the terms idiot or sucker. I don’t even think I meant for you to take it personally.

If you think that me posting 100 comments down in a forum thread some personal feelings about free-culture theory is going to bring the house down on this whole thing…you can’t actually be serious.

I would lay off all the f-words and a-words, speaking for personal experience, you are putting yourself in danger of being potty-flagged. You don’t want to be asked to make a public apology. Trust me, it’s humiliating. :wink:

I didn’t really take it personally, like I said, I’m also a proponent of free culture and copyright reform, though I believe creators should be convinced that it’s in their interest - it’s not ok for us as consumers to just take whether they let us or not. But even if you didn’t use those exact words you implied that people are letting FFG exploit them by paying for our cards. You do you, but don’t belittle other people if they don’t agree with it. Sorry if I came across as too harsh.

FFG have had a very light touch with copyright enforcement, and are very cordial to the community. They did the barest minimum of going through the motions of protecting their IP vs sites like jnet and nrdb, just enough that they can say they tried so Hasbro don’t pull the license from them. They let people make home-made alt-arts and give them out at events that also use official prize support. Some of the artists have even been asked and given permission for their art to be used on other things. There’s a very friendly relationship between devs and community, and I don’t want you as a newcomer to the community thinking they’re a bunch of faceless corpo-douches firing off C&Ds left and right. But yeah, if their hand was forced by the copyright holder and they had to take jnet to court, even this thread might come to light. It’s not hard to write a script that searches the whole forum for specific terms obviously.

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I sent qqq a private message encouraging them to act like an adult, to which they responded by trying to troll me, so I regret to announce that they have been removed from our community.

I doubt this thread is going anywhere without its OP so I’m closing it.

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