If you’re expecting a FC meta and prefer 3GFI to 3TFP, that means you expect FC >55% of time according to @jpr math, so let’s say 60% of the time. This makes the accesses needed to be a weighted sum of the two cases.
Case 1 is no FC, then accesses mean is 23.2 for TGGG2222. Case 2 is FC, then access mean is 20.8. So this means in 60% FC world, access mean of TGGG2222 is 22.24, so up to rounding error the same as GG222 2222 which you quoted as 22 accesses. So again, I just don’t buy that it’s “universally better” even using access mean math. So to me the only benefit is you free up 1 deck slot, but it costs 1 more influence and the agendas do less when you score them. I can see arguments for TTTG2222 as being a great meta call when there’s no FC with its 25.3 accesses and it’s 1 influence saved, but more and more I’m getting convinced GGGT is the wrong call since even in the best case scenario (as little FC as makes it better than TTTG, since more FC = lower access mean, but lower than a certain point and TTTG is better so GGGT is used and has best access mean right at 55% FC) it’s still somewhat lack luster given the three influence spend and half of agendas not creating tempo when scored.
I’m trying but failing to get the script to work, I’d be interested in running TTGG2222 since I couldn’t find numbers on the spread. Maybe it’s the compromise win? Would be nice to get a confirmation on 22 accesses for GG222 2222 as well.
Another weird thing to think about agenda density is the rate at which you score. The faster you’re scoring (or runner is scoring), the quicker overall agenda density falls. So if you score a 4/2 quick your agenda density on GG222 2222 will suddenly look like GG22 2222 which is decently lower mean access than TGGG 2222 left. TBH I was convinced 8 agendas was way better, but playing it now with the 9 just feels so right–and the access math seems (to me) lines up with it being fine/better.
Still not sure about fast track while using the 9 agenda suite vs ice or something else. Also I’m actually curious to run numbers on TG 2…2 vs TT vs GG. Something like TG NAPD 22 2222 might be better than GG222 2222. Haven’t really found philolotic to be all that useful, NAPD would def be an upgrade…
Yeah sure, but in some sense we can just cut Fast Track and think of that as the 9th agenda slot. I’m also convinced we can run a bit less econ due to Corp Sales Team so we can cut an econ slot and feel fine (my deck is on 8 op econ atm and 3 agroplex which feels tight but at that nice “just enough” level where it feels efficient and not durdly, when i ran the 8 agenda suite it felt like it needed at least 9 op econ, likely 10-12).
Honestly I think the biggest effect to me has been HQ content/agenda density. With 8 agenda suite it is significantly easier to turtle and durdle since it takes longer to get flooded and be forced into scoring out. I feel like it lends itself way better to a more traditional super remote glacier approach, like my earlier deck lists. With the 9 you need to score out earlier to avoid being stuck with too high HQ density, so it benefits (well, hurts less) a deck that wants to score early game at least once.
I finally got the script to work! Playing around with it, it looks like in terms of mean access value the following suite is by far the best: {3TFP, 3GFI, 2 one pointers} (yes it’s better than the 7 agenda version with a 2 pointer (even NAPD) instead of the two one pointers–though the NAPD version was very similar in performance. Without FC, and assuming 1/3 steal frequency for TFP gives a bit over 30 mean accesses needed. With FC out, and therefore assuming 95% steal frequency for TFP (still not 100 since he can hit 2, or hit on R&D/HQ glory run without enough clicks to steal allowing us to score out of remote) it still has 20.5 mean access needed.
In comparison the GGGT2222 has 20.4 needed when FC steals 95% TFP, and when TFP is at 33% steal it’s 23.3 . Given that Whizz is the deck to beat and it doesn’t play FC, should we consider running {3xTFP, 3xGFI,2xCloneRetirement}? As a bonus clot installs should be rare so the 2/1 works well, and the 2/1 lets us counter nasty currents.
On a less crazy route, I still like the idea that our agenda suite should not only have good density properties but also be useful. With that in mind I’m now on {1TFP, 1GFI, 1NAPD, 3CST, 3NMK} and playing around the script convinces me that it’s more than strong enough in terms of mean access (with TFP at 33%, NAPD 90% it’s 21.2, with FC and therefore TFP at 95% and NAPD 99% it’s 18.6, with relatively low variance compared to all the 8 agenda suites). I’d like to think it helps me win before villain enters the land of 20+ accesses in the first place, and all the agendas apart from GFI and TFP are useful–well NAPD marginally, but it can create scoring windows or take advantage of them… and it taxes so it slows down runner, lowering his rate of access/click–similarly TFP is actually marginally taxing when hit out of r&d or hq, regardless of FC since psi games tax on avg though it taxes us too). Still that 6 3 pointer suite has me tempted with 30 accesses needed vs anarch!
The script is a little out of date, because these days you can guarantee (barring noteriety shenanigans) that the runner has to score 8 points to win - therefore thats where you set your expectation at. As you add more TFPs you pull the likelihood that the runner will win on 7pts closer and need to set th expectation accordinly
this list is almost exactly what i’m on, at least until PolOp hits (after which I think a less telegraph-y agenda suite might be warranted).
I liked agroplex a lot, but it’s definitely too much win-more; weaker opponents get crushed under the weight of your economy, but good players will take too much advantage of it.
personally the only differences in my list are -1 yagura +1 enigma, -1 pup +1 ashigaru (just don’t install it vs. dumblecakes) as stealth is everywhere in my area and eli + ashigaru is practically a win condition against many of those decks.
I also had 2x snare and no fast track, but I think this is a switch i’m going to make per your list (fast track is better in a deck with nisei, worse with a NA bluffing suite)
Finally,someone finally agree with me on Agroplex.I tested it after people on this thread suggested,and it’s sad that I still don’t like it,even hate it.
I noticed with Agroplex that my better opponents simply didn’t draw on their turns, so it gave me consistent money but was a bit too much click compression for the runner to justify.
So after that my thoughts turned to and IG deck that runs 3 agroplex+3 hostile+3 Museum to just mill the runner. Toss in some overwrites to try to bring down their hand size to make drawing 2-3 cards every turn all that more annoying. Use product recall to both make obscene money and stop the draw if you’re got the runner to a low enough hand size to kill them with ronins.
Still seems terrible, but the thought of flooding the runner with cards and decking them to open up a kill strikes me as amusing.
The advantage on Agroplex seems clearly in Palana’s favor to me:
Even if it were an even trade (i.e. if a corp draw were equivalent to the runner draw), you net 1 credit each turn.
It’s not an even trade, because any click spent to draw is more precious for the corp than the runner (1/3 of their discretionary clicks vs. 1/4).
The draw happens on your turn, giving you first opportunity to take advantage of the draw. In a game with relatively few “instant” effects, the runner’s draw won’t benefit them until their own turn, apart from some highly marginal cases (e.g. they draw an IHW, you play an EMP). This means that on your own turn, you are effectively always one draw ahead on the exchange. Since players generally win on their own turn (apart from some flatlines), this means the tempo advantage is in the corps’ favor (i.e. any game lost “because of” the runner’s agroplex draw is one where the runner “broke even” from agroplex tempo).
There are at least a few in-faction effects which effectively penalize runner overdraw (or otherwise mitigate the benefit of Agroplex) if they can be triggered because they impact the entire hand – Komainu and Psychic Field. The only equivalent effect I can think of for the runner (CBI Raid) isn’t out yet and isn’t likely to be widely played once it is.
There are, of course, any number of tempo- and context-related issues that work against Agroplex – drawing more when runs on HQ are cheap/easy is a huge liability; drawing more on any turn where you’re committed to 3 advancement actions to score isn’t particularly beneficial; drawing more exposes more cards during any multi-turn Medium/RDI dig, etc. These tempo issues can be more finicky than, say, FIS, since Agroplex is a persistent effect (rather than just weighing the tempo of the moment, you have to gauge the risks of tempo shifts until such time as the game ends or you can over-install the Palana). Still, though, this isn’t that much different than any other corp play that requires you to carefully weigh tempo risks against potential advantage (c.f. using Biotic to score a 3/2 before you’re at 5 points when you don’t have infinite money).
Having said that, I’m not entirely convinced that these marginal and probabilistic advantages add up enough to outweigh something else in the card slot with lower risk/reward ratios (see: PAD Campaign, Celeb Gift, etc.). I think it’s a good card (in Palana, at least), but probably not autoinclude. Whether or not it’s a good idea to run will depend a lot on where Palana ends up shining most (glacier v. rush, etc.) and what the synergies/liabilities with the rest of your build look like (e.g. it gets better the more Komainus and Celeb Gifts you have; it gets worse the more you’re trying to compress runner clicks with something like Snare!/Ronin plays).
[quote=“strundle, post:371, topic:6920, full:true”]There are, of course, any number of tempo- and context-related issues that work against Agroplex – drawing more when runs on HQ are cheap/easy is a huge liability; drawing more on any turn where you’re committed to 3 advancement actions to score isn’t particularly beneficial […]
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At one pip per copy, how does Disposable HQ strike anyone as something of a mitigating solution to drawing yourself to death/agenda flood? Given the right game plan, I wonder whether it couldn’t be even more dramatic than Museum of History at stalling the Corp “timer”.
Why would you play agroplex to accelerate your timer and play a card that slows your timer? You end up neutral but you helped the runner draw for free.
Well if you have awesome cards, you don’t have to bottom them! The ideal situation is that you get all the draw to choose which cards you need, but have ways to return the ones you don’t need so that they don’t get trashed/stolen. You don’t want to accelerate your timer (your loss!), you want to accelerate your searching of the cards you need by getting a lot of cards through your hand for as little outlay as possible.
I think if you’re looking for forced draw to be a negative for the Runner (rather than being good for everyone but better for the Corp), you’d presumably be looking at going in heavy on the tactic (multiple Agroplexes and some Harvester-ing) to make the draw too fast to be useful. In that case, recursion for yourself is probably a good thing.
Slots, mostly. Jackson already has you covered on draw, and is defense in addition to that. It was really popular in the old TWIY* Astrobiotics builds for a while.
Anonymous tip is different from clickless drip cards. Anonymous tip bursts you 3 cards, with only 2 clicks left to use them so you often end up stuck with too many cards ex: if you start turn with 5, mand draw to 6, then anonymous tip to 8 you only have 2 clicks so you have to discard a card. Getting 1 extra card at start of turn means you start with 7 and then can play 2 and still have a click left over for whatever. Also, it’s annoying with 5/3s since if you anonymous tip and draw a 5/3 you can’t install advance advance it. That being said, AnonyTip has been used in the past in rush decks competitively.
I’m still think Agroplex only has place in a rushy Palana, where it isn’t just econ, it’s the cards you need to rush. I can’t see it being better for the corp than the runner if you’re doing an 8 agenda glacier. But my opinions have zero experience. Anyone having success with a Palana Rush?