Panchatantra and Damon Stone

So recently I sent an email to FFG regarding the questions surrouding Panchatantra. Specifically, I asked:
Can you give it Current to trash a current?
Can you give Enforcer console to trash itself?
Can you give it Tag so that Jesminder can avoid it?
Can you give Wraparound Fracter to lower the strength?
I also suggested that he create a list of approved subtypes to keep this from getting out of hand.

Here is his response (my comments are in italics):

A current is trashed when another current is played. A card already in play becoming a current would not meet this requirement.
Wraparound would
have it’s base strength if it were given the fracter subtype.
If Enforcer were given the console subtype, and it was the only
console installed, and the subroutine fired, the Corp player would be forced to trash it.
is a defined term. You cannot “avoid” ice regardless of what subtype it
has. Tag is a specific game mechanic, giving something the tag subtype
would have no affect or interaction what so ever
with any card that mentions tags because it is not referring to the
subtype. Subtypes are lowercase bold words in the text box of a card.
Any reference
to anything in the rule book or card text that does not follow this
convention is not referring to a subtype but something else entirely.
cannot "get out of hand” in the way that you are implying. Subtypes are
a specific thing, and cards that refer to them are explicit in such
references. Anyone who puts forward an argument that is not based on the
explicitly stated rules will have the effect fail to resolve (How can it auomatically fail to resolve? This isn’t a computer game). If they
try to argue the point a TO will give them a warning based on
unsportsmanlike conduct (No arguing rules is allowed apparently), and if they convince someone they are playing
in a tournament that those “Effects” are legitimate despite they run the
risk of receiving a game loss or disqualification (maybe it would just be easier to make the list and end this right now?).
When in doubt, read the rulebook and the FAQ when it comes to subtypes. Any opponent
who is trying to rules lawyer you into an interaction that is not about
subtypes should be asked to point out in the rules where that
interaction is explicitly supported (Whatever happened to the Golden Rule that cards override rulebook?).


Formatting issues!

This is confirmation of the ANCUR-powered unofficial FAQ rulings, and seems quite consistent with that. Seems legit. Nothing to see here, really, which is good news! :slight_smile:


Oh lordy. Wraparound can be a fracter is probably the most common weird panchatantra trick, but what’s the strangest consequence of this ruling?

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Other than the “unsportsmanlike conduct” comment, this all seems perfectly reasonable.


Wait, you can actually Panchatantra Wraparound to 0 STR and force Enforcer to trash itself? Is this true? Wasn’t an errata coming that subtypes must be valid ICE subtypes?

Is this a joke?

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Can we please come up with a way to score something other than an agenda by making it an agenda with panera?


Yeah, my reaction was similar to @whatisthistreachery I understand the ruling, and reviewing the cards in question they all “make sense” as such, but I think the enforcer and wraparound rules are just silly to be honest and I was pretty surprised by them. The intent of these cards is clearly directed at the runner’s property, I guess the fact that it doesn’t clearly specify means they’re in a bind and have to concede that it applies to things on both sides.

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Agenda is a type, not a subtype.


No. A lower level FFG official who announced that it only worked for ICE subtypes was outranked by Damon. You can choose any subtype. There is no such thing as an “ICE subtype”, only subtypes, according to the language used by Damon. Supposedly we could get a Resource - Sentry Tracer Connection tomorrow, ruleswise.

You are allowed to make up subtypes. If you pick a subtype like “Asset” or “Archer” you are essentially making up a subtype.

For a Panch shenanigan to work, the instance of the word on the card involved has to be a subtype, and has to mean “a card that has that subtype.” For instance, the Enforcer shenanigan works because the “console” in “trash a console” means “trash a card with the console subtype” (I think console is even bolded but not sure). Giving Pop-Up Window “tag” won’t let Keegan Lane trash it to trash your program because Keegan Lane is saying for you to remove a tag-game-commodity, not tag to implicitly mean “a card with the tag subtype”.

You can’t run around willy nilly insisting that words could maybe mean “a card with the subtype” when that’s not what they are meant to mean (especially when bolding is there to make it extra clear)


Give ICE a region subtype, only one region per server, ICE/regions get trashed?

No, because ICE isn’t in the server, it is protecting the server.


I guess we can get 5 stealth credits off Little Engine with Panchatantra then (any others?). How do you keep track of the stealth credits I wonder? Do they stay stealth forever? Guess you’d just keep them in a side pot.


No. Per the core rules:

The Corporation can only have one upgrade with the
region subtype installed per server or server root, as listed in
the text box of these cards.

Making the ice a Region doesn’t make it an upgrade in the server.


The Region rule only applies to installed Upgrades. You will need to give the ICE the Upgrade supertype also in order to break the game. I bet you 50$ FFG isn’t going to provide you a means to mess with supertypes ever, though.

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Still no. You gain 5 credits. They go in your credit pool. That’s it. The credits aren’t “stealth”, Little Engine would be a Stealth card, but that wouldn’t matter.

ITT: People don’t understand what subtypes are or do.


You still have to point out the upgrade thing to handle Awakening Center ICE.

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The text on SSCG says “Limit one region per server” not “Limit one region in sever”

What do?

NM core set rulebook straightens it out (or doesn’t card text overrule the printed rules?)

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Regions don’t specify in a server. They just say per server

Look, most of the truly dumb suggestions don’t work, but there are some goofy niche cases where RAW means they do: Wrap / Fracter, Enforcer / Console, but that’s about it.

The text on the region upgrades isn’t rules text (I know, I know…), it’s a reminder of the core rulebook rule (I know, I know…)

Ah right this niche interaction too.

Still want a revised rulebook that covers this stuff explicitly :slight_smile:


Cards still overwrite the rulebook, it’s just that nothing you have mentioned here breaks rulebook rules. There are interactions people try and force (such as Jesminder and giving it the “tag” subtype), but since, as Damon pointed out, “avoid” isn’t something a runner can do in regards to an ICE, these interactions don’t work. There’s nothing on the card that actually says “Oh, ‘avoid’ means to bypass.”

I’m honestly fine with a TO ruling unsportsmanlike conduct if someone tries to argue that something works when it actually doesn’t, because that’s just delaying the game while arguing if you can cheat. Basically, I could do the same thing by saying “Sure Gamble gives me 15 credits.” Then when they say that, no, of course it doesn’t, there’s nothing on the card that says that, I can argue back “But I think it does, so I should take 15 credits.” If I do that, I expect the TO to tell me to shove off. I expect the same thing in this case.