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Salsette/CtM Discussion Thread


#101

The point I made in my first post on this tangent is that you cannot make a model that is consistent when you take the French/German stance on Slums/CtM.

I’m willing to be proven wrong on that, but, until I see a model that successfully harmonizes this CtM ruling with the rest of Netrunner, it remains the whims of those who just don’t like the ruling, in my eyes.


#102

The “first” successful archives run event has been sent. It is later overridden, but that doesn’t redact the First event firing.

So, no, the first successful run on archives didn’t happen (after replacement), per se, but the “first” event has fired, and there will not be another (until next turn, obviously).


#103

Yes you can.

You simply need a conceptual model of Netrunner where prevented “first time” effects are not a specific class of interaction that all work in the same way. That being both prevented and a first time trigger isn’t an interesting or relevant characteristic. Nothing says that it has to be other than our assumptions.

I don’t think many people expect an unwritten underlying principle that all cards beginning with the letter “S” should act in the same way, and look for consistency between them (however such consistency would manifest itself). But being unwritten, we can’t know which such principles exist in the mind of the FAQ-answerer and which don’t. We can guess, sure, but if you have a lot of people guessing you have to be relaxed about the fact that different people will on occasion guess differently!


#104

But that isn’t a model (or at least not a meaningful one). That’s specifically discarding a model and evaluating each card on a case-by-case basis.

It’s chaos.


#105

Not at all. It’d be a model based on a slightly different set of characteristics of the objects in your model.


#106

A model is something that lets you make general inferences about a given entity. Bohr’s model let’s you infer things about an atom given its known structure. Newtonian physics is a model that lets you infer how physical systems will interact based on known rules.

What you’re putting forth is that each “first time” effect works differently on a case by case basis. No inferences about future cases can be made from the past, because it is not known how those future cases work.

It isn’t a model.


#107

No.

I’m saying that a Netrunner model can exist without a model for prevented “first time” effects necessarily being part of that.

Like the way that Newtonian physics can exist without necessarily modelling Buddhist philosophies on rebirth.

Maybe it’s just not part of the model.

(Which is why I’m saying that if FAQ answers are based on unwritten parts of the model, then that unwritten part, such as an overarching prevented first time effect principle ought to be written, rather than simply giving the model output for that case, like “Tori doesn’t trigger”.)


#108

Ok. Now, I understand your point of view.

I have another question: is the game send a trigger “oh, it’s a successful run” and the card see it as the first / second event
or is the game send the trigger “oh, it’s the first successful run” ?


#109

Sure, but at this point, we have a model that does work for handling first time events, specifically. It’s like just saying “yeah physics is cool but wtf is up with magnets I don’t believe in those”. A model should strive to be as general possible; neglecting portions for no reason is dubious.

Maybe something down the road will come around and make us need to change our model. But until such a time there’s no value in discarding the model.


#110

The way I see it the game state sends out an event like such:

type: Successful Archives Run
index: 1

And then Sneakdoor occurs, resulting in the following event:

type: Successful HQ Run
index: 1

And then discarding the successful archives run. ST attempts to resolve afterwards, but the successful Archives Run is gone, so it whiffs.

The next time an archives run occurs, you’ll get the event:

type: Successful Archives Run
index: 2

ST will not trigger on this, due to index > 1.


#111

You can have multiple models that explain the same thing. We are not interested in finding any old model, we are interested in finding the specific model that informs the answers in the FAQs relating to discrete cards.

The model that the Sun is a disc pushed around the sky by a massive invisible dung beetle explains the motion. It’s a model, but so what?

You might have seen a ball of dung being pushed by a dung beetle, a marble ball being rolled by a slave and a lilypad being pushed along the Nile by the nose of a crocodile. In that context, the Sun being pushed by a massive invisible dung beetle is somewhat sensible. The form of the error wouldn’t be in getting the wrong type of animal pushing the round thing along, it would be in assuming that there was category in which all moving round things acted the same and always got moved around by animals.


#112

In your model, the interaction Crisium grim / ST don’t work.

On the first run, we have:

type: Successful HQ Run
index: 1

but, it’s not seen by the ST (crisium grid effect). The run is still successful.

Next time we run, the game state send:

type: Successful HQ Run
index: 2

and we gain 2 credits on this run (ST trigger on a run with index > 1).


#113

You’ve missed the point.

The value of a model isn’t in the direct rules that form it, it’s in what can be done with those rules.

The “models” your talking about (for both Netrunner and Suns) provide no value. They allow you to make no inferences about anything.

The models I’m putting forth allow for meaningful inferences on the state of the entity in question. We use them to build our understanding, and further evolve the models themselves. It’s a basic of scientific method.


#114

No, because Crisium inhibits the event from being sent altogether.

You aren’t going to trip me up here.

(P.S. I killed Miluda)


#115

No, the run is still successful, but not seen by the cards.

(ps: Murderer ! )


#116

Right, so the event isn’t sent, because only card effects care about events in a card game.


#117

The way I see Crisium is it has a constant ability that interacts directly with the event dispatcher, and prevents it from sending successful run events on the given server.


#118

Crisium Grid don’t say that the event is not sent, it says it is seen as neither successful or unsuccessful for the purposes of card abilities, but the run is still successful.


#119

Because we move from step 4.2 to 4.3 of the run (or whatever the steps are in the updated run flow). The event has nothing to do with it.

EDIT: the question put forward was removed, so the answer I made in the above paragraph isn’t relevant anymore.

Point is, in the model, the event dispatcher only exists for the purposes of card effects, because that’s the only thing that cares about it. You could call it the “card effect event dispatcher”, if you want, as to not infer that it has effects on the internal operation of Netrunner.

So Crisium directly inhibits it. That’s the model. It works for everything in Netrunner currently. If there’s a different functional model that also works for everything in Netrunner and supports this alternative CtM interaction, I’ll gladly hear it.


#120

If it helps; Crisium prevents this message from being sent:

Instead, this message is sent for any Cards that are Listening for events:

(This matters for, say, Stimhack that waits for a completed Run.)
Because of Crisium, the Successful event was never sent, so now the next Run, (assuming you trashed Crisium) if Successful, would be the First Successful Run, for the purposes of Card Abilities.