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Serious misplay captured in Worlds stream


#1

While watching some of the Worlds videos, I noticed a serious misplay - pulling an SMC from heap back into grip - which not surprisingly played an instrumental role later in that game.

To see it happen, begin here:

1:06:56 - [Note that at this point the top card of runner’s heap is Sure Gamble]. Corp has a big turn including loading then using an MCA Austerity. They then IAA something and give runner time to decide if they want to respond.

1:08:10 - The runner decides to use their SMC to pull Clot. (Corp player finishes turn…). [Top card of heap is now SMC]

1:09:15 - Runner’s next turn begins. It’s only 3 clicks because the MCA Austerity was loaded last turn. Runner uses Laguna to draw x3. They’re now out of clicks, but understandably forgot about the MCA that is now in Archives.

1:09:32 - Runner attempts to install a pair of resources on a fourth click (using Hayley’s ability to install the second), laying them out on the table. Corp player immediately catches this misplay and calls for a judge.

1:09:38 - Runner apologies for misplay, picks up the resources, says they will discard instead, and immediately discards a second copy of Laguna. [Top card of heap now Laguna]

1:09:42 - Corp says they’d rather consult with a judge, so - here is the misplay - Runner then picks up the Laguna they’d just discarded, and also the SMC. [Top card of heap is now Sure Gamble].

From here, they talk to the judge, conclude to play on, and so they do. Following is a bit more play by play which shows the impact that SMC has on the game (even though it’s technically beside the point).

1:14:02 - Corp has a card installed in a remote behind one unrezzed ice, Runner has no breakers installed. Runner uses a DaVinci to play the SMC from grip, then plays stimhack to run that remote. Corp doesn’t rez ice (the install in the remote was a bluff, just another Reversed Accounts), but then the Runner uses those stimhack credits with the SMC to install a Femme Fatale targeting the HQ ice. Time is called, Corp gets one final turn, but with Clot out they’re not scoring anything.

1:17:03 - Runner’s final turn, after time called. Corp has 2 points, Runner has 0 points. This final runner turn includes both an Information Sifting run on HQ and a normal run, unsurprisingly Corp doesn’t rez the Femme’d ice for either of those runs. Runner steals a 2 point agenda from HQ on the second of these runs, for a tie.


That’s the play by play.

I want to believe this is an honest mistake but … it’s SMC. It’s such a pivotal card, I don’t think I’ve ever looked at my grip and thought ‘oh an SMC, where did that come from?’. No, I notice every draw, use, discard of SMC. Surely a Worlds competitor would too?


#2

I noticed that too and also thought you’d never have a surprise SMC. You would know that you’d made that error and, IMHO, the Runner player should have stopped the game right there and conceeded to the Corp player.


#3

I think it’s pretty easy to say “I’d never make that mistake, he’s obviously cheating,” but honestly people make mistakes all the time, even at the highest level of competition. It’s just a thing that happens. Now, I’m also not saying that every mistake is unintentional, as I’m sure some bullshit happens sometimes.

Unfortunately, there’s nothing that can be done at this point, regardless. Hopefully the player in question somehow sees this and recognises that they made a pretty bad mistake, and will be more careful in the future.


#4

I definitely want to give the Runner the benefit of the doubt here, but as others have suggested, it is hard to believe they didn’t notice at any point that they had an extra SMC which they didn’t draw.

Having watched the specific part of the stream where the SMC is incorrectly taken from the Heap quite a few times, my feeling was that it didn’t look like an innocent accident, but it’s probably unfair of me to try and read into the hand/body language of the Runner in this instance and having never played Worlds (or anything above a GNK) myself, I’m hardly in a position to comment on what could be construed as an honest mistake versus a deliberate attempt to cheat based upon this alone.

There was also something said during the conversation with the judge where the Corp player asks “And if I’m not ok with that?” - I presume after being told they can just put the incorrectly installed cards back into the Runner’s Grip and continue with discarding - and the Corp player comments “I’ll take whatever win I can get”, which causes the Runner to respond by saying “That’s nice to know” and get up out of their chair. Whether there was already some disagreement between these players prior to this incident I don’t know (I haven’t had time to watch the entire match), and it would be pure conjecture to speculate that any prior disagreement may have motivated a deliberate attempt to cheat by the Runner, but it certainly feels like there’s at least some bad feeling between them at this point.

I think the key thing though is that it’s really quite difficult to believe the Runner didn’t realise what had happened at any point following the misplay, but I hope that I’m wrong and this was just a serious brain fart by the Runner.


#5

I have some Intel that suggests that there was some bad blood here based on prior interaction.

Dry humour and sarcasm from the Corp should be put aside tbh.


#6

Mistakes happen. Most of the people who get the most upset about these errors on streams are people who have never recorded themselves playing after playing for 6+ hours.

I recorded myself and was embarrassed at the errors that I made. I’ve since made some changes to the way I play and how I manage my resources and tokens through a match that I believe has reduced the number of errors (especially around the credit pool).

In the case of this specific incident, I can tell you that both players are pretty unsatisfied with how this match went. I know both have rewatched the footage, and while I don’t think either are looking to get back together and hug it out, them seem to be willing to let this lie and not harp on it.

I think it is fine for us to have a discussion on misplays, both our own and those captured on video at the high level. However I think we should avoid discussing these players, these judge rulings, or the outcome of this situation specifically. These discussions too often get heated and/or accusatory or turn into witch hunts.


#7

After rewatching this closely my opinion is that it’s an honest mistake. When you play Hayley a lot you think of cards in sets of two, so much so that I’ve accidentally tried to do a “Hayley trigger” while playing a criminal deck after playing Hayley for weeks. (Laguna also forces you to think in twos.)

The runner tried to install two cards, thinking he had four clicks. MCAAP was not on the table, and it’s an easy mistake to make. I’m sure we’ve all done it. When the corp player reached across the table, the tension skyrocketed. It was a comparatively aggressive moment, and in my mind this is when the corp player began angling for a game loss (which would have also been evident to the runner). It would be a lot harder to think clearly after that.

The runner then starts discarding into the heap. It was a Laguna turn (two cards, two cards, two cards), with a Hayley trigger that shouldn’t have happened (two cards). When trying to rewind the game state, it would be natural to pick up the last two things in the heap (two cards).

I have two general thoughts:

Number 1: I cannot believe how cavalier most players are about tracking clicks. It’s like driving a car and covering over the speedometer because you’re a top tier driver and you feel it makes you look less top tier by having available a visual representation of the speed of your car. (This is not aimed at these two, this is aimed at nearly everyone I watch and everyone I play with myself.)

I had been relatively ambivalent at tracking clicks until I sat down across from a runner who tracked my clicks as well as her own. Since that day, I assiduously track my opponent’s clicks using my own click trackers. You wouldn’t believe the amount of times I get asked “What click was I on?” Opponents have to concede then that they haven’t been doing a good job of tracking clicks, and that they’ll have to concede to my record-keeping since I’m the one who’s at least been trying to clearly follow the clicks.

Number 2: Fucking FFG card designs. MCAAP and Peace in Our Time are two examples of cards that should have been conceptualized differently and more thoroughly tested. If you’re designing for a physical card game and a card effect is “in play,” the best scenario is that the card should also be in play until the card effect leaves the game state. Just as an example, Peace in Our Time could have been a 0-cost Resource or a “hosted condition counter” Event that is trashed at the end of the turn. I’ve seen some players leaving Peace in Our Time on the board to ward off game loss, but this is technically not legal since the effect resolved the card should be in the bin.

MCAAP could simply have the Kati Jones clause added “You may only use MCAAP once per turn,” which—aside from making the card more balanced—would mitigate cases where a click loss is in effect but there is no visual representation of it anywhere on the board.


#8

About calling judges:
Is calling a judge for an extra click taken to install cheap? It seems cheap to me. But there seems to be an alternate perspective that calling judges for any/every misplay is healthy. On one hand it’s probably good practice to document the violation with the judges in case it becomes repetitive. On the other hand, the Corp openly states their intention is to get a win any way they can…which suggests some unsporting/cynical intentions.

About the unnoticed violation:
Of course that should end the game. But I didn’t notice anything in the video that suggests cynicism on the part of the Runner.


#9

To those saying they can’t believe it is an honest mistake and that you’d never be surprised about an SMC in hand, the context of this game is very important:

  1. It is Worlds.
  2. It is late in the round so both players are playing fast to try to complete the game.
  3. The runner just drew 6 cards in a single turn.

This was a simple mistake and it shouldn’t be treated as anything else.


#10

I think’s it’s generally best to give the benefit of the doubt and there’s enough doubt in this situation. This isn’t like the Conquest player who systematically cheated by sneaking extra cards into his draw.

Click trackers should be used in tournaments, for the benefit of both players, especially with cards like MCA and Peace in our Time. I don’t usually track clicks, but I would at the next tournament.


#11

I don’t really see what this post is trying to achieve other than start a witch hunt tbh, if that’s not your intent I apologise but that’s the impression I get. If you want to see mistakes for days move that video time along to about 3:15:00 I know because I was making them, as was my opponent (including using 4 clone chips). One of the best things about this game is the community, if every beneficial mistake made on stream was call for accusations of cheating, most people who’d been on a stream would be in the docket.


#12

I think you only have to follow the paper trail of why a Stimhack account that’s been dormant since 2015 suddenly reappears to provide Vital New Information. :spy:


#13

Just in case anyone’s wondering, this post is made by “a good buddy” of Alex Forndrann, who is the person Spags is playing here, after not having posted on the site for close to two years. I wonder why he’s suddenly back on Stimhack again :thinking: :thunk: :thunkplant:

Here is Alex Forndrann alias Firesa/Firetesting/many others apparently posting under ‘firefrenchy’ a handful of hours earlier: https://imgur.com/a/mlD4D :thinking:

Now I’ll happily admit that the whole situation here is a clusterfuck, but misplays happen when people plays Netrunner for a long time. Everybody always think they don’t make misplays, but I bet you’re gonna change on that when you see a recorded game of your plays.

Anyway what the fuck. Are you gonna let this go before Worlds 2018?


#14

Oh, damn. You got me.

A huge mistake on my part, obviously. I was flustered by time, and my idiot misplay with the MCAAP.

I am cavalier with click tracking, because it rarely matters, but MCAAP really threw me this tourney. After this game, I tried to track my clix when the opponent fired MCAAP, and still fucked up v. Wilfy.

I’m not defending what happened here in the least. Massive mistake on my part. It would have cost me a Prestige point, and given Alex one more. My previous tie made this one superfluous for me, and Alex was strong enough to nigh win out.

If you have never made mistakes at high level play, I congratulate you. I remember a game where the lead designer allowed a takeback in games deciding the world championship. Shit happens. If you want to believe I’m a cheater, go with god.


#16

Thread over. Spags, please make up for this by organizing dozens of tournaments and providing years of community building, please.


#17

Please buy more spinners, all.


#18

I need 2!


#19

This is why we have floor rules. Your suggested fix of the situation is silly, and not in keeping with the floor rules at all.


#20

I’m gonna leave this topic open for further discussion but any stoking of drama will not be tolerated. Please keep to impersonal discussion about improving floor rules and judge call etiquette and retrospective penalties and so on, and refrain from any speculation about malicious intent on the part of either party involved. That or fidget spinners.


#21

Should I break a new discussion of the malicious intent of fidget spinners into its own thread? Please advise.