I think’s it’s generally best to give the benefit of the doubt and there’s enough doubt in this situation. This isn’t like the Conquest player who systematically cheated by sneaking extra cards into his draw.
Click trackers should be used in tournaments, for the benefit of both players, especially with cards like MCA and Peace in our Time. I don’t usually track clicks, but I would at the next tournament.
I don’t really see what this post is trying to achieve other than start a witch hunt tbh, if that’s not your intent I apologise but that’s the impression I get. If you want to see mistakes for days move that video time along to about 3:15:00 I know because I was making them, as was my opponent (including using 4 clone chips). One of the best things about this game is the community, if every beneficial mistake made on stream was call for accusations of cheating, most people who’d been on a stream would be in the docket.
I think you only have to follow the paper trail of why a Stimhack account that’s been dormant since 2015 suddenly reappears to provide Vital New Information. 
Just in case anyone’s wondering, this post is made by “a good buddy” of Alex Forndrann, who is the person Spags is playing here, after not having posted on the site for close to two years. I wonder why he’s suddenly back on Stimhack again 
:thunk: :thunkplant:
Here is Alex Forndrann alias Firesa/Firetesting/many others apparently posting under ‘firefrenchy’ a handful of hours earlier: https://imgur.com/a/mlD4D
Now I’ll happily admit that the whole situation here is a clusterfuck, but misplays happen when people plays Netrunner for a long time. Everybody always think they don’t make misplays, but I bet you’re gonna change on that when you see a recorded game of your plays.
Anyway what the fuck. Are you gonna let this go before Worlds 2018?
Oh, damn. You got me.
A huge mistake on my part, obviously. I was flustered by time, and my idiot misplay with the MCAAP.
I am cavalier with click tracking, because it rarely matters, but MCAAP really threw me this tourney. After this game, I tried to track my clix when the opponent fired MCAAP, and still fucked up v. Wilfy.
I’m not defending what happened here in the least. Massive mistake on my part. It would have cost me a Prestige point, and given Alex one more. My previous tie made this one superfluous for me, and Alex was strong enough to nigh win out.
If you have never made mistakes at high level play, I congratulate you. I remember a game where the lead designer allowed a takeback in games deciding the world championship. Shit happens. If you want to believe I’m a cheater, go with god.
Thread over. Spags, please make up for this by organizing dozens of tournaments and providing years of community building, please.
Please buy more spinners, all.
I need 2!
This is why we have floor rules. Your suggested fix of the situation is silly, and not in keeping with the floor rules at all.
I’m gonna leave this topic open for further discussion but any stoking of drama will not be tolerated. Please keep to impersonal discussion about improving floor rules and judge call etiquette and retrospective penalties and so on, and refrain from any speculation about malicious intent on the part of either party involved. That or fidget spinners.
Should I break a new discussion of the malicious intent of fidget spinners into its own thread? Please advise.
Welcome to Stimhack, @Kage! Good to see you commenting on your first day as part of the Stimhack community. Always great to see new voices join the discussion. Best of luck in this brave new meta, too!
When to call a judge has a little bit of nuance and I think you are asking a really good question here. I feel comfortable enough with the topic to respond to it, but know that I am only speaking as a person who has played in a few tournaments and someone who has judged at a GNK and store champ level, not as someone who has judged at a premier level event.
You should always call a judge if you want to. I think when I went to my first big tournament I was really wary about calling a judge, and it felt really good to get over that. A tournament is more fun when you can call a neutral party any time there are any rules problems you need to clear up.
There is merit to call a judge when your opponent makes a mistake, especially when it benefits them. If the mistake warrants a warning, those warnings are documented and it might let a pattern of suspicious behavior to emerge.
That said, assuming the mistake was easy to rewind (no hidden info was gained, we both remember what the game state should be) I usually wouldn’t call a judge just because the opponent made a mistake. A few reasons, some of them good-hearted and some of them lazy:
Calling a judge every time an opponent makes a mistake sounds tedious and I am too selfish to take the time for that just on the extremely low chance that it will result in some pattern of bad behavior emerging.
I prefer to trust the goodness of my opponent.
I wouldn’t want my opponent to get a game loss if it is something I don’t feel like is a big deal.
I think if you and your opponent are doing some serious rewinding of a game state, or you can’t figure out how to rewind a game state, you really do need to call a judge for that and sometimes it results in game losses being issued. That’s not ideal but it’s a necessary negative of Premier level events: sometimes there is no fair way to rewind a game state and in the interest of fairness there’s nothing else you can do.
I recommend reading through the Floor Rules. They are really well thought out and should make you feel better about when to call a judge and when you don’t really need to.
Incidentally, if we are talking about improving the floor rules:
What about fixing the discrepancy between how the floor rules refer to different tournament tiers (Casual, Competitive, Premier) and how the fundamental event document refers to different tournament tiers (Relaxed, Formal, Premier).
This is clearly what we should be talking about.
Thx Sanjay! Very helpful. Just read through the floor rules you posted right before your response here:)
The reason I brought it up here is that I wasn’t fully satisfied with the discussion in the Judge Calls and Etiquette thread. I tried writing a post several times to express my ideas, but I couldn’t get it out right. The judge call in this clip is a good example of what left me uneasy with the other thread. So let me try:
Everyone draws their own line on what is reasonable to “just rewind” versus calling a judge. But there are clearly different motivations for judge calls. One possible motivation is to keep the game going along as fairly as possible…and when that cannot happen then a match loss may be given. Some folks–w/ greater executive functioning than I–may draw their fair-to-rewind line at zero mistakes. Good for them. That’s an excellent standard for the game and not necessarily cynical in the least. Against that standard judges should be called often. I don’t know anyone who actually subscribes to that standard, though, and I know many people who would be forgiving of benign misplays. But yes…each player gets to set their own standard of fairness.
An entirely different motivation is to call a judge even if you feel that the misplay was benign and you’ve not lost any meaningful advantage. That would be cynical rather than sporting.
Usually we can’t distinguish player motivations because we can’t read minds. But here we have a player who verbally reveals the motivation behind the call…and it’s the kind of motivation that will sustain the stigma around calling judges. In an ideal world, judge calling would have zero stigma. But that will never happen when some players pursue opponent misplay as a worthy win condition for our game, even when they (apparently) consider the misplay benign by their own standard.
I like to think that this particular event has been a bit high profile because it is out of the ordinary. Just as I would like to trust in the goodness of my opponent with regard to game play errors, I would also like to trust in the goodness of my opponent with regard to judge calls.
I mentioned in the last post that sometimes whether or not you should call a judge is a bit nuanced. But if you are tired, unsure, or haven’t thought through the exact situation you are in, the question is not nuanced: absolutely call a judge. It’s hard enough piloting two decks through long rounds of swiss; additionally keeping the floor rules crisp in your mind is not your responsibility as a player.
I think stigma against calling a judge should be combated and you can do some things to help:
I spoke with both players from this game and both agreed that no further discussion of the incident was necessary. Please take anything further to the more general judge call thread.