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So am I allowed to take notes during a game or not?(tournament)


#1

Take a look at the latest tournament rules and please quote me the passage which forbids taking notes during a game if it is indeed not allowed.

I could not find it anymore…

I seriously think the rule has disappeared and none has pointed it out so far, or am I just stupid? :wink:


#2

The floor rules clarify that notes are considered outside assistance.
Outside Assistance—Game Loss
Definition
A player receives or seeks information, strategy advice, etc. from someone not involved in the
match. In addition, a player cannot refer to notes or other physical/digital information during a
match. However, a player may ask a judge for the official text of a card from CardgameDB
during a match.
Examples

  1. A spectator mentions the name of a piece of ice that is installed facedown.
  2. A player looks at his notes while shuffling before a game.
  3. A spectator looks at a player’s hand and suggests a course of action for the turn.

Also on pg 3 of the tournament regulations it states.

Players cannot reference outside material or information during a match.


#3

This still seems crazy to me. I can wander into a tournament and disqualify someone instantly by ‘helping’ them out.


#4

So is referring to notes the same as taking notes?

My general understand of referring to notes would mean I brought the notes into the game, so it would be considered outside material, which is not allowed.

But taking notes during a game can hardly be considered outside information.

But I am no native speaker in that matter, that is actually the sole reason I even asked.


#5

I’d like to be able to take certain notes like “What is Targeted Marketing aimed at?” or stuff for a blog post later.

There shouldn’t be any notes to refer to… From the Tournament Rules:

Players cannot reference outside material or information during a match. However, players may
reference official rule documents at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule
documents.

You can have a copy of the tournament rules, FAQ etc., but shouldn’t be using other notes (neither scribbled during a game, or brought into the tournament from elsewhere).


#6

My whole point is that there was a specific passage about “you are not allowed to take notes” until the latest tournament regulations release.

And first of all the “Floor Rules” are not meant to be for the player:

Although some players will inevitably read the Android: Netrunner floor rules, this document is not meant for players.

Then all there is left that might not permit taking notes during a game is:

Players cannot reference outside material or information during a match.

This definitely says you are not allowed to look at anything that comes from the “outside”, e.g. notes you brought to the game.

If I bring a blank sheet of paper and write something on it during the game, you can hardly call it outside information. If you are very strict you can call it outside material.

But in the case it is considered outside material, wouldn’t a die be outside material, too?

The situation was very clear to me when the rules said, you are not allowed to take notes.

But in this case, that single sentence could mean anything and nothing, depending on the understanding of it.

There is a very distinct difference between consulting notes you brought to the game and taking ones while playing.

And why did they take out the “no notes allowed” passage after all, to streamline the rules and make them less understandable?


#7

You are asking a lot of questions when the title of the thread has been answered. You are not allowed to take notes during a game of tournament netrunner.

I think some of the wording may have been changed to accommodate people who want to take notes AFTER a game but were worried about getting into trouble for it. There might have been other reasons as well. Ultimately the floor rules are what will be enforced by the TO, so you really have no excuse, especially seeing as you have read them. The floor rules, whilst supposedly not meant for players, are most definitely meant for players that are looking to play a competitive netrunner event.


#8

You sound like a lawyer trying to find a legal loophole :wink:

Probably best to quiz FFG if you believe things have changed. The passage as written isn’t there, but the intent seems the same to me. I’m not sure a semantic argument will get you a definitive answer.


#9

I think some of the wording may have been changed to accommodate people who want to take notes AFTER a game but were worried about getting into trouble for it.

Those are the old rules about notes:

Taking Notes
Players are not allowed to take notes to aid memory or gameplay, whether physically or digitally, during a tournament match. Referencing outside material and information during a match is also prohibited, except for official rule documents.

You were always allowed to make notes after a game, you just may never look at them (refer) during a game, that has not changed in the slightest.

They just deleted the first sentence as whole, so is the implication that notes are allowed now that wrong if the very sentence that forbids them is gone?

I just want to understand what it means that they deleted the first sentence of the old rules. Because taking notes and referring to notes seem to be two distinct things and one of them is no longer forbidden.

And I would love to ask FFG about the rules and proof my reasoning that notes are allowed now, but the last X times I used their support system to ask for rules clarification they never answered at all.

Just found the right email for tournament rules, will ask them asap. :wink:


#10

Are you suggesting that you should be able to take notes during a game but never reference those notes during a game? Because that’s a hard task to accomplish: unless you’ve mastered sightless writing you are reading your notes (which is an act of reference) at the same moment you are writing them. Now, if you had a tape recorder you could probably make the notes and so long as you didn’t play those recordings back you wouldn’t be referencing them.

As far as “outside” goes we don’t have a clear definition here. The game does not provide the mechanics or affordances for taking notes, so in the sense of the game’s design note taking in general is “outside” the game. Written material beyond the rule book, the card text, the various FAQs and tournament documents is by its nature “outside material”. There’s no reason to think because the material was made during the game time that it is necessarily “inside” the game. If I made a gun during one of my matches, we’d still recognize that the gun was not a part of the game of netrunner, whereas a copy of Unregistered S&W is “inside” the game even though no one ever had it in their deck or in play at the time the tournament takes place.

There’s a legal history to the prohibition against note taking and nothing explicit that overturns that history. It’s possible to interpret the omission as you do, but for historical and practical reasons I’m hardpressed to imagine a TO to allow it without some serious browbeating (something explicitly against the rules).


#11

There was a legal history of disallowing intentional draws as well and look where we are now.

My single point is that they used to make an explicit difference between taking notes and referring to materials / information in the past with the former being absent now and none seems to care, when the intentional draw rule clearly shows the new people in power have a very different opinion about how tournaments should run.

Taking notes during the game is something I would consider a game aid like using dice and maybe consider them outside material, but that is very vague to me.

The clear intend of the refer outside material / information rule is that you are not allowed to consult anything that gives you additional information outside the information from the match, e.g. explicit card texts or strategy information.

Nevertheless I asked FFG why they deleted that specific sentence that clearly disallowed notes and if that has any implications or not.


#12

You seem to have missed my point about explicit overturning of historic rules. When FFGOP began allowing intentional draws and concessions, they made several official announcements about it to clarify the rule change. They haven’t made any such explicit statements about changes to the rules regarding notes, and there are several explicit attachments against note taking that are from secondary rule sources that remain unaddressed. Ultimately the interpretation of the omission is the purview of the TO, who has practical concerns about note taking that lead me to believe they would not allow it: your argument that you should be able to is your interpretation.

You keep saying it’s clear that “outside material” doesn’t include notes taken during a game, but that’s not actually clear, hence the difference in interpretations. Dice are representing information that’s explicit in the game state, but notes could be used to represent things not explicit in the board state. The credit pool, for instance, can be represented in a variety of different ways, but it’s not note taking because it is a component of the game (therefore not “outside”). A note is something that is neither called for in the rules nor representative of something called for in the rules.

Do you have a practical example of a note you’d like to take during a game?


#13

Do you have a practical example of a note you’d like to take during a game?

If note taking was allowed I would use it as a memory aid.
Like keeping track of exposed cards or cards I would see in HQ, RnD, or on the board.

Like it would be practice in other card games. (MTG as best example)

There is basically nothing to gain concerning information which you were not allowed to gain anyway.
It can only help to remember information you acquired before, that is why I would not consider it outside material or outside information outright.


#14

I am ok with note takin being disallowed as a memory aid for what you saw in HQ earlier, etc. I’d prefer memory not be a skill that is being tested, but it’s ok that it is. It’s fine.

What I do very much dislike about the note-taking rule is that people generally consider it to mean that you cannot use any aid to mark cards on your opponent’s board that would verify whether they were cheating later if you were concerned about it. You can’t mark a card that was installed along with a scored GFI, a Caprice, and an Ash with a token so that you can later ask a judge after the game to look at it and verify your opponent didn’t put an agenda as if it was an upgrade because you had 2 HQI installed. But, you know, I wish I had a mechanism for cheat checking a Maya’d Snare right before I Jackson too… if there’s not going to be 100% across the board cheatchecks in the game, why won’t they at least use the refusal to add cheatchecks to add extra intrigue to cards like Clone Suffrage Movement instead of adding an arbitrary UFAQ rule that you must reveal the returned operation when you bounce it. It’s like we get the worst of both worlds…


#15

Memory is a skill in this game. Stuff like marking remote cards with tokens or marking indexing runs cannot be done.

Reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/2pioo3/lukas_on_the_use_of_tokens/

The reason they amended the rule was mainly for people doing stuff like tournament reports imo. That said, writing notes on a game you had in Swiss with a player, then reading them over again before you played after the cut if you two met again would be cheating.

I don’t think any of us will be able to convince you of otherwise though, as the reasons why you are wrong have been clearly listed in this thread already, so emailing FFG might be the only way to get you to accept the answer to your question.


#16

You’d better stop ANR after that.


#17

Using tokens for marking things is the same as taking notes.

Considering memory as skill, my argument here would be that Lukas is no longer in charge and Damon has taken over and maybe he as a different opinion in that matter. Probably quite unlikely but not impossible.

Concerning notes about games, I am pretty sure if you take your notes after your match and look at them before you start your elimination round that would not violate rules at all. The rules only speak of “during a match”. And in that case the “not allowed to refer to outside material or information” rule would apply.

Considering information between matches, is there any rule that forbids scouting in the current set? (To me scouting is very shady and a really unfair advantage)

Also may I quote the old deleted sentence again:

Players are not allowed to take notes to aid memory or gameplay, whether physically or digitally, during a tournament match.

It was never forbidden to take notes to write a tournament report later on the way as worded here. If your notes did not aid gameplay or memory the rule never applied.

I am also totally fine if note taking is still prohibited, my whole reason for this post and my argumentation is that FFG deleted a very crucial part in the rules and none seems to have cared about it in the slightest. I find it especially crucial, because they deleted the same part for every other LCG out there. For that case I don’t even mind being the “stupid stubborn idiot” in this discussion.

The general argument seems to be here: It has always been this way.

Let’s hope FFG answers me this time, maybe I need a non German email address for them to write back. :wink:


#18

While you’re at it you should also ask if clicking for a credit is still a legal action. I mean, there’s a new design lead, so has anyone REALLY confirmed that one is still able to spend a click for a credit in this game?


#19

I can’t see how you could possibly take notes during a game when “referring to notes” during a game is prohibited. I mean, the loophole seems to be you could write a note and then never look at it again.


#20

More than that, you’d have to write them without looking at them.