The Future of Jnet (and Netrunner)

While we’re waiting for a reply from @mtgred, one of the other devs (Neal) that works on Jinteki has posted a mirror of the site here: http://netrunner.nealpro.com:2052/

It seems to work and has all of jnet’s functionality, but it’s mostly bereft of players at the moment, likely due to a lack of awareness that it exists.

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Aah, the inexorable and crushing slog of software maintenance. @mtgred - I feel your pain dude and I know the feeling very well, it’s the modern-day version of Sisyphus and that big rock of his.

I deliberately built blackat to auto-update every night from NRDB so I don’t have to touch it as I knew all too well that I would never keep up even that low level of maintenance, let alone programming in new card mechanics which simply can’t be automated - I dread to think of the small, seemingly insignificant abilities on some cards which must caused huge amounts of refactoring and adjustments to the engine to accommodate them. We all start with the best of intentions, how we’ll create a system that’s super-organised and easy to re-factor and update, but somehow it’s never quite that simple in the long run :slight_smile: (I would argue that something like Clojure is highly likely to become an absolute spaghetti nightmare at the scale needed for a game like this, but maybe another time…)

If your’e done then you’re done dude, it’s too big a job to force yourself through it. The only thing for it is the pass the torch on - you’ve done plenty.

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Netrunner is built to be played by two people at a table. While automation is wonderful, any facility that just replicates the table will suit the communities needs. I can manage my own interactions, credit pool and so forth. The interface is developed with automation in mind, and would take a shape that empowers efficient user management of the game state.

This is a huge drop in functional requirements and I dare say manageable for a small team of devs who don’t want to kill themselves on it.

I honestly don’t think a fully automated, interaction managed tool (unless FFG sponsored) is viable long term. This thread proves it.

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Someone needs to transfer credits from a corporation into his bank account. Any number PDF people on any number of netrunner communities would be more than happy to alleviate and stress this guy has.

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it seems like a lot of his problems are with the game, so i don’t expect he’ll be back if he takes a break, but i wish Minh all the best with whatever he decides to do now. some of his comments hit me right in the feels, and i hope things get better for him either way.

as someone who prefers face-to-face games didn’t play jnet too much, it was still nice to have to be able to play when no one was around and to test things out, especially for out-of-meta testing because my local meta is so small. mad respect for all the time and effort that went into implementing that and keeping up with all the automation.

i don’t want to derail this thread too much, but it seems likely that FFG (and by extension, Asmodee, who acquired them) want to focus on person-to-person interaction that is available at your FLGS (not just in LCGs, but board games, which is really a major selling point of the hobby as a whole versus say, video games), so i don’t think this criticism is appropriately placed. also, as i said, it doesn’t seem that all of this has to do with jnet specifically but also the game itself (and balance, or lack thereof)

i also hope that we can all move past using that word in such a way.

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Which is a real shame. Love you guys, love playing with you too.

Guys like db0 and mtgred spawned and sustained a hobby for me, connected me with this lovely community. But I get that you’ve got to be a little crazy for the game to create it online and support it. It takes someone special. Without such people, stimhack, and a whole host of other supporting sites, would not exist. Might be nice to let them know you appreciate the work (and/or take a tiny bit of the weight when things are tough), because a world without people who make things happen would be a boring world indeed.

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Many of you here have said you want to support him with money. While that is fine and well, it usually isn’t an enough motivator for home projects. Home projects are driven by the spark, not money. So if his spark is gone, it is probably better for him to give it away to another driven individual, at least temporarily.

Thanks for all you have done for us @mtgred. You have done more than most and deserve a bit of rest.

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As much as I love playing paper netrunner, there just isn’t enough players in my area. I now have 3 people in my local meta, but only one owns a full set. I go to every tournament I can but honestly I wouldn’t play without jnet. I work nights and every tournament us an hour+ away. For people like me jnet is really the only way I play

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Currently, it’s back. Thanx, @mtgred!

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Living in Sri Lanka, Jinteki is my only option other than SGP nationals! Thanks for the great site pal!

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Don’t know if I can add anything that hasn’t already been said, but @mtgred is an absolute champion for building Jnet and everything he has done for the community.

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Ditto this.

I’ll also just echo @mtgred’s dissatisfaction with the game recently. I can’t say I’m done forever, but I’ve lost a great deal of interest over the course of Mumbad.

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It would seem that Minh has been turned off by Flashpoint cycle so far, and not so much Mumbad.

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I really like playing on jnet and was desperately searching for something similar to the all-mighty OCTGN for Mac users like me for a long time. So I think I was one of the early adopters of jinteki.net.

And since I really really appreciate the work of all those guys behind it and Minh in special, I am a bit worried because maybe all this online-netrunning has made some of us a bit lazy in spreading the message and recruiting new players? Say, why should you look for new folks, pin flyers about your game nights to the wall of your FLGS and try to convert those Magic players - when you can have a 24/7 online meta with its own star players and a level of evolution that is much quicker than it might be healthy for the game?

Just thinking out loud, but I got the impression that a general darker/cards-are-OP mood on the stimhack forums and now this dissatisfaction of the game’s biggest online playing plattform is no coincidence.

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This is the heart of the situation. Decks can get built and optimized incredibly quickly. It’s really awesome, but I think that this, coupled with the instant sharing from NRDB, means that decks move from “interesting idea” to “omnipresent” very quickly.

The asymmetrical nature of the game exacerbates this: when IG prison decks were all the rage, it pushed runners to play lots of Employee Strike. This made archetypes which heavily lean on the ID ability (e.g. blue sun glacier) or a few naked assets much less viable and archetypes which do not have such a strong coupling to the ID (e.g. NEH fastro) and can spam assets much more viable.

It’s very cool, but the intensity of the selection process pushes the game into these local maxima quickly, and tends to push away from general-purpose “good stuff”/ANR fundamentals decks. Feeling like you have to constantly keep on top of the new ridiculous combo deck that is unbeatable without tech is tough, and seeing cards in each datapack that can threaten another meta shift / tech + counter-tech change can be exhausting.

Anyway, that’s how I see it. I don’t know that it’s necessarily a problem (probably more a matter of taste for what you want to get out of the game), but I think it’s what’s going on.

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i want to be clear that i’m not knocking jnet. i was responding to what i feel is misguided criticism (and the language used) towards FFG for not implementing their own online netrunner platform when they are primarily a card/board game manufacturer

i live in a small country and also know what it’s like to have a small meta and often find myself having to fall back to jnet when i’ve been unable to play locally and think that it would be a true shame if it were to go away, but i don’t think we can start directing hostility towards FFG as a result of the current situation.

this situation is really about Minh and jnet, and i wish him all the best with everything he’s dealing with

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Wizards recently changed how they report decklists for MTGO because they thought that the online meta was being “solved” far too quickly thanks to groupthink nature and massive crowdsourcing of data that can be done now by a player base.

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Ah wow, yeah, that’s a really interesting topic of discussion to be honest - how much have online clients and resources shaped the archetypes, warped the balance and accelerated the meta towards the state of ‘stale’? The problems exists for a lot of games these days - the sheer quantity of games played just seems to turbo-charge everything; however, online-native games are able to be patched and re-balanced, but card games … yeah it’s harder to compensate.

Are JNet & Stimhack a victim of their own success? :smiling_imp:

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I don’t think it’s proper to blame online play, Dominion in its heyday had a massive online scene combined with a ridiculous amount of mathematical analysis and it arguably improved the game by contributing to better understanding of the game. Admittedly there’s a lot of differences (the lack of customizable decks and random starts being the key ones) but a well-designed game will still hold up to repeated online play. I wonder how much playtesting time Netrunner gets before release.

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On the other hand, did you ever hear of the “Halifax Hammer” for the “A Few Acres of Snow” boardgame? It was a dominant strategy that only got discovered by extensive online play and revealed a severe design flaw that otherwise, in a normal world without the possibility to play it only, surely never had appeared.

See A Few Acres of Snow and the Critical Silence On The Biggest Flawed Game of 2011 | On Gamer's Games | BoardGameGeek if you like to know more of the story.

Aynway, I think that online play can be good AND bad for a game. Sometimes, it reveals flaws and “solves” a game - but it can also burn out players.

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