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What is the correct ruling?


#1

hi, please help me find out correct ruling.

here is a situation.

  • gabe having 5 cards in hand and 4 clicks.
  • jinteki PE with upgrade in the root of HQ as well as single ice there: rezzed, not advanced ice wall
  • gabe plays inside job targeting HQ
  • jinteki player says ‘ok, i will rez hokusai grid’
  • gabe player says he just passed ice wall and wants to jack out
  • jinteki guy ofc wants his damage in.

what should be the ruling here?

thanks for answers


#2

I believe that you get an opportunity to rez hokusai before he jacks out. The run was successful once he passed ice wall.

In fact, after the run is considered successful, I don’t think there’s an opportunity to jack out anymore, it’s simply whether or not he decides to access cards.


#3

I agree with Scala. It’s successful no matter when he rezzed during the run. In fact, as soon as you target HQ and say inside job, he can rez and there isn’t anything you could do to negate/avoid the net damage as the run is considered successful as soon as you bypassed ice wall as it is a mandatory requirement to bypass the first ice and is considered successful if you get past all the ice before deciding to access cards in the server or not.


#4

point 4.2 in timing structure says u can jackout right?


#5

Oh snap, I guess I read that wrong. I thought it was successful regardless if you jacked out or not as you got past all the ice. In that case, it would depend on how nit picky you want to be with the timing. If he rezzed before you announced whether you access or not, then you would in fact be able to jack out and not take damage. If, however, you announced to access and then rezzed you would not be able to jack out and would take the net damage.

To be fair though, there would be no reason for him to rez it before he has the opportunity to zap you and I would most likely let me opponent have the chance to claim that he rezzed after I announce that I would access or not.


#6

why u assume im the side here :slight_smile:

this is interesting situation in tournament, as there is no point for guy to play inside job and jackout, loosing 2 and a card. it was obvious the access will take place (imo), if so, the jinteki player did angle shoot by jacking out, right?

what is correct ruling in terms of fair play/game spirit?


#7

If it’s not a tournament, it’s up to the player doing the running as he can have a say as to whether to follow the letter of the law or spirit. Letter means he is fine to jack out without any damage. Spirit would allow his opponent to hit him.

Either way, tournament rules would state that his opponent announced the rezzing of Grid during a time that would allow his opponent to jack out if he wished. (Although, it could just be a dirty Jinteki trick to get him to waste inside and not access for 2$ and a card) As such, tournament rules dictate that the runner is free and able to jack out due to the timing of the run.

If it’s a casual game, the runner has the opportunity to allow for letter of law vs. spirit of law. It would just be more douchy to follow the letter of the law in this example in a casual game and not let the Corp rez appropriately.


#8

any opposite view? maybe some magic judge that knows netrunner here?


#9

I’m looking at the Timing diagram currently:

Step 4.2 says that after he passes the ice (with inside job), he can choose to continue the run or jack out.
Step 4.3 is your only window available to rez Hokusai Grid.
Step 4.4 the run is considered successful.
Step 4.5 accesses cards.

I think the timing is pretty straightforward. You rezzed Hokusai Grid at an illegal time (you can only rez hokusai after he declared he isn’t jacking out). By rezzing too early, you accidentally exposed your upgrade and he would technically be allowed to jack out since he hadn’t decided at that point.

I think in a tournament, he would get away with jacking out and not taking damage. Though in a friendly setting with inside job and only one ice, it would be pretty reasonable to assume that his intent was to not jack out and he should take the damage and access cards.


#10

will the ruling change, if there is more than few seconds of silence between playing inside job and rezzing of an upgrade?


#11

One of the guys in my local circle, for this exact reason, always asks “continue?” after you pass each piece of ice and the last one. That alleviates any improper timing issues and possible accidental reveals. Even in casual play, it’s a good habit to get into, so there’s never a question.


#12

After passing the ice wall, the corp needs to ask: Continue?
If the runner jacks out, they jack out.
If the runner does not jack out, then the corp can rez Hokusai Grid, at which point the runner may no longer jack out and must hit it.


#13

Don’t play in such a fuzzy, unclear way.

Ask ‘Continue?’ as corp. Or say ‘I continue’ as runner, after passing the ice.


#14

but im asking as a judge that needs to make decision what ruling was appropriate. on the one hand i understand that this game has its rules, on the other hand, when logic dictates intentions in clear way - game spirit is more important in my opinion.

im suprised all of you here say something like ‘in casual game its ok, but tournament is different story’. does it mean that tournaments are unfriendly and should discourage casual players from taking part in them?

after creation of this topic i dig a little and found out in mtg there is ‘rules enforcement level’. guidelines are, that on local level game spirit and fair play should be over rules in such situations (as i suspected). here, my impression is, that even local tournament should play like worlds.

are there any materials for judges created by ffg?


#15

It means that casual players need to learn how timing rules work, and be clear during games when things are happening.

In regard to the ruling, I would say:

The runner cannot jack out. The runner inside jobbed a 1 ice server. Is it reasonable to expect that you would inside job a 1-ice server and then immediately jack out? No, there is no reason to do that.

Therefore the runner clearly was intending to continue onward.
The corp has the opportunity to rez Hokusai Grid at such a time that the runner cannot choose to jack out. If this is the corp’s intent, it happens. The runner cant go back in time and say “oh wait, before you rez Hokusai Grid, actually I jack out”.

Of course, the corp should have asked the runner if he continued the run first. However, in this case, its clear that the runner has no reason to jack out, since absoutely nothing has happened so far since he played the inside job.


#16

I do kind of wish FFG had a judge system similar to magic. I’m a L1 magic judge and would love the opportunity to fulfill a similar role for Netrunner. This is also one of those situations that different TOs will have different fixes for… speaking from a local game store event perspective (Friday Night Magic or similar events), if there is a miscommunication about a shortcut a player takes, the game is backed up to just before both players had to make a decision, in an effort to help newer players learn more complex interactions.


#17

It doesn’t work as well for a game like netrunner though, since hidden information is a bigger deal and happens on a much broader scale than magic. You can’t just “rewind” a situation like this after the corp showed his hokusai


#18

It certainly can involve hidden information in magic, and can be as large an impact on the outcome of the game as revealing the Hokusai. In this situation, the corp player is the one who prematurely razzed his grid before confirming the runner was continuing. While it might be a dick move, the runner has every right to say hang on, I didn’t say successful run. It’s a mistake on the corp’s part, which gave the runner information. You can’t make decisions for someone in a game. Maybe he was about to jack out, because he realized as soon as he played inside job, that Hokusai and snare might kill him, and while he can’t take back inside job, he can jack out. That’s perfectly legal. You can’t be certain that he was going to continue, and so any “official” ruling can’t be based on the spirit of the rules, but the rules themselves. The onus here is on the corp player to be sure of the game state before revealing cards, which honestly is a good habit to be in.