What's up with Criminal?

[oconnor0]

Woman in the Red Dress + Bhagat?

[Danwarr]

@Dragar

It’s funny how trashing a piece of ice (in Anarch) is often a lot easier than derezzing it (in Criminal). Yet trashing ice has the same economic hit, and then some. Hopefully more cards like High Stakes Job will make unrezzed ice more of a liability for the corp.

So there are 3 Criminal cards that can derez ice: Crescentus, Emergency Shutdown, and Muertos Gang Member which doesn’t specifically derez ice.

Anarch has 6 cards that directly trash ice, Cutlery, Parasite, Run Amok and Immo Script, plus additional ways to trash ice out of R&D or HQ, Demo Run, Keyhole, Imp, Wanton Destruction, etc.

Orange cards are so much better at controlling what the Corp can do. They can pressure all 3 centrals, plus the remote. They can manipulate the Corp board state. They can make money almost instantly. They have faster and more effective draw cards. They have highly effective breakers that make most ice irrelevant.

It’s just so much easier to play Anarch than it is to play Blue cards or even Shaper. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to make an effective Criminal deck is insane compared to Anarch. To use a Damon-ism, maybe it’s just a function of people not exploring alternate play-styles? I’d like to give the Netrunner community more credit than that though. The bottom line is that, right now anyway, it isn’t really clear what’s appealing about playing Criminal over playing Anarch. They pretty much do everything you want to do as a Criminal Runner, but better. Never mind that Anarch’s probably have the best win condition in the game with Medium.

[linuxmaier]

@Danwarr

They pretty much do everything you want to do as a Criminal Runner, but better.

Account Siphon is still a really fun card, but Anarch can afford to splash that pretty well, too =/

[Danwarr]

@linuxmaier

Account Siphon is still a really fun card, but Anarch can afford to splash that pretty well, too =/

It’s even better when you can play it in Anarch with DDoS

[hatman]

I’ve come to think of derezzing ICE as a delayed economic hit. In that vein you can add Account Siphon, and… hm… Isn’t there a virus? Oh wait, that’s Anarch.

Basically, for the Criminal gameplan to work, you need to be able to attack the corp’s draws and their income. You need a way into their scoring server as well, or at least, something that economically penalizes them for using it. Hey, don’t we have a spoiled card coming up? like, in Anarch…? (No, I’m not bitter.)

[Thike]

DDoS really should have been Crim. Denying unrezzed ICE feels way more criminal, botnets be damned. “I don’t really want to blow up your defenses, so long as you don’t use them against me.”

[Danwarr]

@Thike

DDoS really should have been Crim. Denying unrezzed ICE feels way more criminal, botnets be damned. “I don’t really want to blow up your defenses, so long as you don’t use them against me.”

It would’ve given Crim a good infaction card to use Career Fair with too.

[CrushU]

@hatman

As you noted, sentry breakers are generally terrible, or Mimic. I think this is a deliberate design decision.

This is a problem. They’ve decided two things: Each faction should be the ‘best’ at breaking a type of ICE. In order, for Shapers, Anarchs, and Criminals, they have the best Decoders, Fracters, and Killers.

The second thing they’ve decided is that breaking Sentries should be the most difficult. So while we get Gordian Blade and Corroder, we don’t get anything close to that efficiency for Killers. As the Killer faction, Criminals get shafted.

To fix it, they need to either decide to make Sentries easier to break (that seems unlikely; ICE costs and Breaker costs are balanced around the current paradigm…) Or they need to do away with each faction having a ‘best’ breaker type. Or else make it so Criminal has comparable breakers since we’ll never get a Killer on the power level of Corroder. Note that they don’t need to have the Best breakers… You see them doing this a bit with Aurora and Peacock, and shudder Leviathan. Breakers that are in Criminal simply because they’re not allowed to have an efficient Killer, Decoder, or Fracter. Even the B&E suite seem to indicate they’re heading that way for Criminal breakers being Middling efficiency for all types.

So it looks like they’re aiming for:
Shaper - Great Decoder, poor Fracter, poor Killer.
Anarch - Great Fracter, poor Decoder, poor Killer.
Criminal - Good Killer, Good Decoder, Good Fracter.

---

So, other than that, we have three main strategies for ICE: Shapers efficiently break it, Anarchs destroy it, Criminals get around it. One of those three strategies isn’t sustainable. Take a guess as to which… As long as their ‘get around it’ is Event based, Criminals won’t be able to sustainably ‘get around’ ICE. (There’s a reason Femme is so good for Criminal.) I’d actually love to see Femme-analogues for Decoder and Fracter, that stipulated they could only use their bypass counter on their own type of ICE. Something like:

4cr - Tunnel - 1MU
Program - Icebreaker Fracter
2 Strength
When you install Tunnel, choose an installed ICE. When you encounter that ICE, you may pay 1cr per subroutine to Bypass the ICE if it is a Barrier.
1cr: Break Barrier subroutine.
2cr: +1 Strength

(Name the codegate one Password with the same stats as Tunnel.)
They’re cheaper than Femme because they can’t bypass all types. (Can’t Tunnel past a Tollbooth, can’t Password past an Ice Wall.)

[oconnor0]

Yeah, looking at Sneakdoor Zeta, it seems like Criminal often has top/mid-tier efficiency ICE breakers with specific limitations or drawbacks. Like Breach averages out to be cheaper than Corroder, Rex is cheaper than Gordian Blade.

Edit: Averages are irrelevant in any specific situation, but in terms of economic efficiency, they’re a useful concept.

[hhooo]

The whole Breakers aligned with factions thing was out the fucking window with the core set though. It was Anarch has the best breakers, and they still do, save maybe Faerie and Lady/CyCy?

The biggest issue with Crim is that their best breaker (and indeed only good breaker) is Faerie, which they don’t have the support cards to use more than 3x per game. Also, I’ve been crushing online with this Ken deck, if anyone’s interested.

Dingus Ken

Ken “Express” Tenma: Disappeared Clone (Honor and Profit)

Event (25)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
3x Fisk Investment Seminar (The Universe of Tomorrow)
2x High-stakes Job (Kala Ghoda)
1x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
1x Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) [color=#32CD32]•••[/color]
1x Retrieval Run (Future Proof) [color=#FF4500]••[/color]
1x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x The Maker’s Eye (Core Set) [color=#32CD32]••••• •[/color]

Hardware (5)
2x Desperado (Core Set) [color=#4169E1]☆☆[/color]
3x Public Terminal (Honor and Profit)

Resource (6)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
2x Drug Dealer (Old Hollywood)
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (9)
2x Cerberus “Rex” H2 (All That Remains)
1x Corroder (Core Set) [color=#FF4500]••[/color]
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Faust (The Underway) [color=#FF4500]••[/color]
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
15 influence spent (max 17-2☆=15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Kala Ghoda

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

[Danwarr]

Awesome list at a glance. Thoughts on High-Stakes in practice?

[Chuftbot]

Let me check.

…

Yup, you sure put good cards in. I like this list. I’m interested to hear how the Public Terminal/High-Stakes combo is treating you as well.

[hhooo]

It’s just plain good. Bank Job/High Stakes/Terminal are pretty dumb together, this deck has trouble going below 20 creds midgame, hence the 2nd Femme. The Femme’s also make High Stakes a very low risk proposition. Other than that, they usually sit in hand for 1-3 turns before you can plan the use of one, but never longer than that. Only Crisium is a bother as of yet, but Crisium is generally saved for HQ vs. crim anyway.

If was going to make any changes right now I might want to fit a Scavenge? But it’s been good so far, and the Ret Run does a lot of work. Not 100% on the numbers of everything but every card has been good. Faust, funnily enough, has been the card I’ve played the least.

[Chuftbot]

Not too surprising that Faust is getting less use if you have a full suite and are swimming in money. I’m most concerned about the singleton Special Order though. Do you ever get locked out due to deck screwage? What happens when you really need that Corroder? Also, what’s your answer to 24/7 scorching? Just thug it out with drugs?

If I sound overly critical I’m sorry, that’s not my goal. I want an excuse to break out the alt-art for store champs something fierce. Just want to touch on everything that could present a problem.

[hhooo]

Yeah, I’ve yet to be flatlined, and I generally take a lot more risks than most with that sort of thing. Keeping a full hand, them low on cash, etc. Has been enough so far. If you expect a lot of Yellow McFlatliners definitely make some changes.

[Webster]

How are the copies of Rex going for you? Do you feel that two Desperado is sufficient? Do you think the deck could work with two copies of TME and including a third copy of SOT?

I’ve never been very pleased by Rex, but I could see where Rex and the two Desperados would be satisfactory if you’re running less frequently, trying to make the runs more impactful with the events.

[Larro]

How vital are the FIS / Shutdowns? Those would be the first changes. I’d sooner keep the Shutdowns though and opt for maybe swapping the 3 FIS out for 2 Plascrete and a 2nd Special Order. Otherwise the deck looks solid. I’m hoping Ken can gain some traction, I’ve spent the better part of today trying to get excited about a “solid” Criminal deck for Store Champs, and I just can’t settle on one.

[Chuftbot]

Honestly our meta is so loaded with FA players that it probably won’t matter. I’ve taken advantage of that many, many times. This won’t be anywhere near the last. Good work, mate.

[Saan]

@hhooo

High Stakes a very low risk proposition.

I like those odds!

[hhooo]

Forgot to address the singleton special order - that’s just been my preference since the release of FiS. I think FiS is just a much better card 90% of the time, and, at least the way I play it, part of why Crim can be competitive right now. I generally play 3 of those before the first copy of Special Order. Hasn’t been too much of an issue. One thing I could see is just changing the Faust to a second copy of Corroder.

@Webster - A 3rd SoT (and Desperado) is certainly on the table, the card is awesome in here, but you really want a TME early to make sure you can keep them off Agendas if you stall out for a turn or two. And I’m not willing to play stupid planned assault, before anyone asks. I could see -1 TME for an RDI, but not for something besides R&D pressure.

@Larro - See above for FiS, I would never consider playing Crim with less than two copies, and I always start with 3. I think it’s one of the best runner cards right now. Shutdowns have been hit and miss, and going to one copy would probably be fine.

If people think there will be a lot of Glacier or Jinteki, you need the Levy. If people think there will be a lot of FA and Yellow flatline, cut the Levy/Shutdowns for Desperado #3, corroder #2 and 1-2 plas somewhere. If you think the meta is going to be a lot o Yellow Flatline and Glacier, play a different faction.