What's up with Criminal?

Netrunner General
122

I feel like leela is a matchup the corp can control in the way that the corp can control nasir. With the right technique and speed and build you can take her down and mitigate her ability; but, you have to know how to play that way and a lot of players simply don’t or don’t have the tools/build to deal with it. RP is one of the builds you can easily do that with, but she can still run away with a game with good psi bids and whatnot. So, I think she’s in a good place if we aren’t talking ultra-competitive netrunner. If we’re talking ultra competitive netrunner, I think she’s solidly tier 1.5 along with many other runners.

I’m in the camp that believes criminal is just a bit to boring at the moment. There are other more interesting ways to play the game now. And it helps that sometimes they’re also more reliable. I don’t find Andy (piloted and built well) is weak, and I’ve seen strong enough crim decks to know you can do other stuff. But its true that your hands are pretty close to tied on breakers and therefor influence. I’m hoping we can see some new stuff for the faction, but I want to see some actual lateral growth not the second coming of Account Siphon.

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123

I’ve lost against Leela precisely once, and it was because of a Siphon-Siphon-Same Old Siphon kind of thing.

Every time I saw Leela across the table during SC season I was like smh I’m tired of slapping you hipsters down just play Andromeda like your parents did after the '60s were over. Apparently she’s pretty good against not-RP, though, so … don’t be such a dick, past-me.

I think corps just need to start playing 2 Fast Track and double-icing a remote turn 1 against Kate and they’re being stubborn about it because they’re still pointing on the doll to where the Siphon touched them. Mark my words, you can abuse a Siphon-less and Leela-less meta.

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124

Who is worse? Gabe maybe? It’s pretty much the same thing.

125

More anicdotes…I played probably 8 across 3 regionals so far and lost to 1 (Joe Mann), but I’ve been playing one form of butchershop or another and they die so fast.

126

I would rather see Leela than Gabe.

Those free Sneakdoor runs are way more irritating than having to spend a click replacing my HQ ice after a Nisei score. Also, I’m a little bit too impatient for the matchup, where I really should be durdling through 3 Jacksons until I’ve installed all my ice, but I’d rather just keep this Nisei and this Future Perfect in hand so I can stretch a little bit before the next round.

127

Silhouette.

128

I really could have used Silhouette at Philly Regs. Died to three kill decks in various humiliating ways. It was a bad day.

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129

In theory this sounds right, but most Silhouette decks I’ve seen pack Quest Completed, which is actually pretty solid against scoring remote Caprice.

130

And keels over and dies at the first sight of an ELP.

Or are we also playing Doppelganger?

131

My best record against RP in a store championship is with Gabe.

Of course, it might have been due to me winning every critical psi games rather than the deck.

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132

Can’t remember the last time I saw ELP out of RP. Clearly the coming rise of Criminals based on this very thread will bring it back!

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133

I think it’s just easy to misplay the matchup.

I lost to Gabe in an SC because I’d literally never tested my deck against him, so I played risky and lost. With practice I don’t actually think the matchup is that difficult, you just have to wait until he’s shot his wad before you make any plays.

134

He did say “playable runner”.

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135

Have you played RP against Stimshop CT? That is about as unwinnable as a matchup gets. Opus is completely unplayable against Sundew econ.

136

Wanted to tack on one more thought (looks like it turned into several). Criminal is in about the same place Anarch was back when it’s baby Noise got hit with a 1-2 jackson punch. All of its cards that are any good and are low enough influence are out on loan: legwork, crescentus, E3, femme, cache, career fair, account siphon, switch blade+silencer, desperado, special order.

We see these cards in a lot of decks, but they aren’t enough to pull weight within their own faction. Simultaneously, we see a lot of anarch decks playing with only a few cards out of SanSan & O&C. Those cards are typically: Symmetrical Visage, I’ve Had Worse, Net Ready Eyes, and sometimes Wanton Destruction Cutlery. Adjusted Chronotype, D4v1d should probably get an honarable mention. The rest of the decks are mostly zu, 3x breakers, 3x parasites, etc which you’ve always been able to do.

What this is saying to me is that Anarch was mostly capable of dealing with the meta and just needed a little push to be competitive. That, in the end they were probably more functional than we were giving them credit for, they just weren’t as easy to play then as they are now. Also, they now have the boogey men to deal with their inner weaknesses.

Can criminal do the same? And if not, what is that space that they need a little push in? Breakers? Possibly, but maybe we have the solution for breakers and are just tired of doing the same old thing. Economy? Eh, it’s more difficult now, but Anarch’s using Kati. Maybe that’s our problem. Maybe crim just needs more Kati. Maybe moving away from Kati was a mistake. Card Access? I don’t know, they still can get breakers and a bunch of other things. I’m not really convinced they need more access to their stuff. Truth is that they spend most of their influence on R&D access and fracters; but, similarly shaper spends most of its influence on sentry breakers and HQ access (economy). Criminal’s a bit slower to get its breakers into play, but still has the not mu-dependent special order.

I think Criminal is likely in a better place than we give it credit for and I think a large portion of the discussion here is simply about miniscule meta changes that would push the faction back up to “clearly the best”. Criminal was “clearly the best” for a very long time. I think its better to not have decks that are “clearly the best”. But it certainly makes netrunner harder. :slight_smile:

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137

As a recovering Andy player, I think this is what has taken its toll - the “drop desperado and face check until they run out of money” plan is no longer something you can reliably plan on doing… architect, grail, crick, gutenberg, cortex lock are all dangerous to face check, and you lack the in faction recursion to deal with a lost breaker.

Butcher shop being a thing has also taken its toll on the Andy / NEH matchup, which wasn’t even a coin flip at its peak.

I honestly don’t think that its really a problem - the meta switches back and forth. Criminals were on top of the pyramid a few months ago, its not unreasonable for shaper to have some visibility for a while.

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138

I’ve been running Kati in Criminal for a while and it’s really crucial for the RP match up. I don’t play her every game, but if I know I’m in for something that might get through to the mid-game I need to find her soon.

One thing that might help (and this was discussed a bit in the Leela thread) is swapping Dirty Laundry for Daily Casts. Yes, you lose some of the synergy of Dirty Laundry + Desperado + Sec Test, but you gain back an econ card that isn’t conditional. I’m still running Laundry, but I can see the appeal of casts and definitely see how it could be nicer in the RP matchup.

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139

I agree the meta is more interesting now that Crims aren’t head & shoulders the best faction. You do have to acknowledge the sime analysis, though, that corps getting better Ice and Econ is largely responsible for the fall of criminal, the faction with the most run benefits.

Take Gabe for instance. He used to win games in Spin somewhat frequently without installing a permanent breaker. That kind of crap doesn’t even happen in casual play now. I don’t know how Gabe will ever be competitive again. He has to use his face more than any other runner, and, well, Archtiect, Pup, Blue Sun, Crick, Cortex, Caduceus, Datapike, Pop-up, Gutenberg, early Tollbooths because the corp can afford it …

Would love to see the list and tourney report of the Gabe that won a regional. Me no understand.

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140

First time I played Leela in a tournament, I played 3 Casts over 3 Laundry because the guy lending me cards was using the Laundrys in his Kate. Been playing Leela almost exclusively since (about 3 months). Tried switching back to Laundrys at a local game night once and the deck was immediately noticeably worse. In my experience, you’re absolutely right - non-conditional economy is crucial for Criminal right now.

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141

This. The run-based economy is what used to blow games open for criminals, since you got to double your click value—building econ while actively moving towards victory. It’s pretty easy to shut down or straight tax out run econ for a decent subset of tournament worthy decks.

Add to that how dangerous ICE is (and getting more dangerous all the time, as @mediohxcore noted), and it’s a rough ol’ life :). Interesting that while criminals have undeniably the best in-faction ice scouting, those cards aren’t good enough to put into a deck to try to overcome the dangerous-ICE question. Probably because they’re still too narrow or untutorable to warrant the precious utility deckslot.

I wasn’t aware that was a thing, but definitely play Kati :).

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