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Where is the MWL? - As of August 20th, 2018 - MWL 2.2 is here (effective 2018.09.06)


#684

Really? Pawnshop comes 2nd at world’s and you think this is the best list?


#685

But TTW does not start with 4 counters on it. Assuming a typical game here…to get that many counters the runner has to have made at least four runs. The Corp has an ICE with a two credit tax on the outside of the server, so the runner has also paid eight credits to get through it those four times. Therefore, the runner has spent a full turn plus at at least eight credits and all they get in return is a Legwork or Maker’s Eye they can use on any of their clicks. That is a good situation for the runner to be in, don’t get me wrong, but they had to pay a bit of a price to get there.

On the contrary, TTW requires you to be running for it to do anything at all. And it isn’t a “burst” effect like Deep Data Mining, Legwork or The Maker’s Eye, you have to make many runs for it to charge up before you use it.

Just thinking about all these points, I would go so far as to say that The Turning Wheel is almost a perfectly designed card in terms of costing, effect on the game and the playstyle it encourages.


#686

I would agree with that sentiment, whole-heartily. The difference in investment between TTW and something like The Maker’s Eye is incredible.


#687

Drove by what corp ?


#688

Assuming you never played one of your half etr ice, or that your etr all came by luck innermost and recovered.

IE +/-10c + 4 ice, with fitting ice (= so many draws) + 4 install to counter your draw / install / 4 empty runs. The perfect balanced card, sure.

On two servers, of course.


#689

Nobody plays many straight ETR ice these days.


#690

This is so wrong. Ask CI’s mom, or daddy Skorpio, or their son Tennin.
I was told Kakugo was a thing lately.


#691

Okay so I may be a bit tired but this just makes 0 sense to me. Bouncing off of EtRs with TTW is probably a losing proposition anyways.


#692

But for one beautiful, hilarious moment, I was starting to wonder whether Severnius Stim Implant was OP too…


#693

4 empty runs is a lot of empty runs. Those are runs that the Runner isn’t drawing, or making money, or enhancing their rig. While they are doing that then you, as the Corp, should be making moves that force the Runner into action elsewhere, or take advantage of it.

Perhaps, too, if you’re having trouble with runners bouncing off your simple ETR ice on centrals, start including more ice with non-ETR subs that the Runner can’t just bounce off of. Something like IP Block is cheap, easy to play, good in almost every situation, and taxes out a runner just trying to bounce. Fairchild 3.0 is so broken that it got restricted! Architect, Archangel, Mausolus, almost any Jinteki ice… The runner can’t just bounce off of those infinitely.

It goes back to the classic ice evaluation: Don’t put your binary ice on your centrals, put your taxing ice there,

Runs on centrals are, at all times, high value so binary ice won’t be worth it long term. Put your taxing ice on them so that multiple runs over the course of the game become a problem for the runner’s economy.


#694

Was with you about Aesop’s, but then you said some crazy shite like “remove Fairchild 3.0 from restricted.”


#695

Restricted: MCAAP, VLC, Tapwrm
Banned: Brain Rewiring

MCAAP is nuts, giving the runner all of 2 turns (with 3 clicks per turn) to trash it with no downside. Restricting VLC (or UVC, whichever) knocks CI down a peg without really gimping anyone else. Tapwrm is too efficient, particularly with Peace in Our Time. Brain Rewiring is played in 1 deck, probably the strongest deck in the game with only a few counters, and is considered by some a NPE similar to old Accelerated Diagnostics decks.

I think Aesops is just too strong with Levy (or even CC) to be unrestricted. It’s already effective in the right deck. Temujin is too strong to ever come off. Honestly, I don’t think there are any cards that should be unbanned/unrestricted. Maybe Gang Sign can eventually be unrestricted, but not yet.

The Turning Wheel is fine IMO without the Snitch/Au Revoir combo. GPI Net Tap + Zamba is the closest to it, but is harder to set up (hardware vs programs) and still gives the corp the chance to rez the ice, forcing an encounter. The only deck that really gets to take advantage of it that way is Smoke, where Net Mercur + TTW lets you farm money & counters, but Smoke isn’t oppressive.


#696

I’m sick of seeing Tapwrm everywhere, but I don’t think it belongs on restricted. Peace into Tapwrm isn’t that great an econ engine, which is why nobody was running it for months and months. Remember Tapwrm was in Quorum: http://www.knowthemeta.com/Cards/Tapwrm/

The reason it’s so omnipresent right now is that they ripped away almost all the other viable runner econ tools. The “solution” to the “Tapwrm problem” is the printing of more decent runner econ cards, not further removal of what little is left.


#697

Tapwrm is a very balanced card, unless the runner also has 3 Sac Cons down. Restrict San Con. Lots of players way way better than me said it’s a good candidate (including Wilfy and Dan off the top of my head). Sac Con does double duty in shaper decks, protecting not just Tapwrm, but also an instantly-tutorable Clot. This means the runner can afford to sit back and remote lock, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY stopping the corp from fast advancing, which is pretty much the only way to deal with a remote lock now that stuff like Caprice aren’t around. If a runner deck goes slow, it should be weak to fast advance, and vice versa. It’s not ok that a single deck can do both better than any other runner!


#698

Ban CI. Problem solved.


#699

Or maybe restrict it? The design of the ID has proven over and over that there’s always something busted you can do with it, so it probably shouldn’t exist (as written - I’m not opposed to Bagbiter effects in general). Maybe if they can’t have any Restricted cards, that’s enough? No FC3? Maybe restrict UVC? I haven’t played against Rewiring much, I dunno.


#700

Don’t think Saccon should be banned. Don’t think it’s broken with peaceworm either. Corps just need to handle it with antiviral cards. Corp gotta tech too yknow.


#701

But on the same token you have to find your copy of TTW (most decks only play one) plus your breakers to get past whichever pieces of ICE are on the outside of R&D and/or HQ. This is probably no different to the Corp finding suitable pieces of ICE for R&D and HQ.

As @Suipe and @Kopiok have said, most ICE played these days are not going to end the run but will allow you to pass but at a cost. One that is unsustainable for farrming TTW counters.


#702

If you do this, the problem, aka a dual Maker’s Legwork, stays.

This means a simple thing : one card, in the right deck, sure, can be used to lock 3 servers. This should have been a virus since the start, so at least as the corp, you can defend against it.

People say those are empty runs. Why should they be empty runs. It can be whatever runs : tapwrm enabling runs, mining enabling runs or indexing enabling runs. This is either passive or not.

Second effect : you must rez outermost on 2 servers for all your “but this cost you 2c each run” arguments to work.

This just mean you’re 3-server locked. You’re judging the card out of decks or situations.

In-situation, this is what happens : the runner play this and there is not much you can do.

You can’t say “I’ll put more ice in remote” if your centrals are in danger. You can’t say “I’ll put more ice in Centrals” if you can’t rez : what should you do, turtle until the end, then loose slowly ?


#703

MCA, being a Terminal, is already on a soft restricted list (when IPO / Preemptive / Hard Hitting News are a thing) : putting more than 6 Terminals in a deck is quite wrong in my opinion.

Having those asks you to play less IPO or Preemptives.

So, what does people : play 3 IPO, 2 Preemptive and your MCA, along with the Weyland operation tutor in x2.

I’m coming back and forth whether 2x or 3x Preemptive is right. I’m in the 3x Preemptive mood since 2 month now, because they are a 3x econ / snare / whatever card. So 3x preemptive, 2x IPO, 1x MCA, no HHN.

This means you have choices to do : this is what I call a soft Restricted list : there is a hidden cost to play this.