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BaBW's use cases now that BS exists


#1

OK, so Blue Sun is out and it’s the new hotness. It can obviously do a lot of things well… but that’s not what I’m interested in. The questions that I’m asking myself are “What are the things that Core Weyland does better than Blue Sun? Which of them are better there than in GRNDL?”

Looking over the various IDs:

  • BS benefits greatly from asset economy (Adonis is particularly outrageous, but even Private Contracts are fine) and high-impact assets that normally need to be placed in the scoring server. This should in turn mean it’s best-positioned to take full advantage of a “clean” (no BP) build, and glacier. Spending influence on high-quality ICE seems like the reasonable thing to do, because that investment is much safer from both negation (Knight, Femme) and destruction (Parasite). The ability to liquidate investment again significantly facilitates credit-dependent plays (Restructure, Punitive, SEA/Scorch, Ash). As a side benefit, (in addition to its normal use) Oversight AI sort of becomes Restructure #4-6, with the caveat of requiring two actions, another card, and delaying the payoff for a turn. Being a standard 45/15, the only disadvantage the ID brings is the opportunity cost of not being another ID.
  • GRNDL has the advantage of starting cash big enough to make power plays, whether it’s rushing, scorching or others. The disadvantages are BP (which means assets/upgrades will be inherently less valuable, especially if there are non-asset alternatives) and being only 45/10 - obviously they can manage, but this means they have to stick closer to Weyland’s native card pool.
  • BWBI is very sad and is still waiting for a card that will give you extra clicks for advancing ICE. Being able to grow Ice Walls (and now morph… well, morphs) free of charge is nice, but the click problem remains.

What, then, are BaBW’s strengths? What got me thinking was this remark, over in the Keystone 2.0 thread:

If you add 1 credit to Restructure’s gain, it becomes as good as Curtain Wall + OAI is for Blue Sun, money-wise. That makes it pretty obvious:

BaBW makes you money, sort of like ETF (weaker, but still). That’s what makes it most different from the other Weyland identities:

  • BS only makes you money in some cases, and it needs clicks, time and sometimes influence to do it.
  • GRNDL doesn’t make you money, it only gives you more money to start with.
  • BWBI doesn’t make you money, it gives you a discount on an action that costs money

BaBW mandates an operations-based economy (duh), thus technically leaving us free to decide whether to pursue the BP route. Looking over the list of currently existing transaction operations:

Influence-less options:

  • Hedge Fund and Restructure were going in anyway
  • Beanstalk is Hedge #4-6, so that’s good
  • Commercialization won’t recoup its costs
  • Diversified Portfolio doesn’t play well with the operation-based economy our ID mandates
  • Paywall Implementation might be interesting, if we go the “let you in, kill your ass” route. Still, fringe benefit

Out-of-faction options:

  • Fundraiser definitely becomes better than it is in Jinteki. Whether it’s good enough is a different question entirely
  • Successful Demo doesn’t seem worth it unless coupled with Troubleshooter - we can already get this much money without the pre-condition
  • GLC and BLC are solid enough to be splashed elsewhere, and here they’re further improved.

So, in order to make the opportunity cost of not having BS’s flexibility worth it, it looks like we’ll be wanting to spend at least some part of our influence on properly leveraging the transaction bonus. The way I see it, the best road to take is to pack 3 BLCs. This will turn us into a slightly slower GRNDL (with a little higher variance, possibly) with progressively bigger upsides as the game progresses. We’ll effectively have only 9 influence, but that might be ok - GRNDL manages with 10, and most builds spend 2 of that on draw power, which is something we’ve got built into our econ splash.

So, let’s assume we’re better off than GRNDL. What are the situations where we’re better off than Blue Sun, as far as trying to win goes? Let’s be honest here - flatlining probably isn’t going to be it. Whether SEA Source, Midseasons or Punitives, BS’s instant liquidity will be more useful. The only thing I can think of where having a larger pile of cash on the enemy’s turn is better are Ash and Tracers. That also sounds like going the BPless route might be a good option.

Along those lines of thought, here’s my first draft:

Would BS be worse here?

Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World (Core Set)

Agenda (9)

Asset (3)

Upgrade (4)

Operation (16)

Barrier (9)

Code Gate (4)

Sentry (4)

15 influence spent (max 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Up and Over

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Some random thoughts:

  • Not doing Jacksonless, because of that Chinese-Irish G-mod jerk
  • No Power Shutdown for the same reason
  • The one-of Archer has been pretty good in testing so far, people don’t expect you to rez one when you don’t have a Hostile scored - this makes it much easier to actually make it connect (and stick)
  • Going clean means I get to run NAPDs, making overadvanced Atlas harder to spot. It also means Crisium Grid makes more sense, which is awesome because I love that card
  • Changeling seems decent, and tends to end up swapped to Sentry mode most games. This in turn makes me more comfortable with not running a full set of Archers (and as a result, dropping Hostiles)
  • Wendigo is more useful than I originally thought, and it’s a very good outermost piece for the scoring remote

Now, what I’m interested in:

  • Is there some (more or less) obvious thing I missed in my analysis? If so, what is it?

  • Should some of my ICE pieces be the big, impressive Weyland barriers? If so, which and why?

  • Should I be trying to run OAI, both to enable the Archer, and potentially to enable the barriers? (if OAI were to come in, it would probably be a 2-of in lieu of the Grids)

  • Does the agenda spread look ok? Would you change something, and why?


Nerf Deck
#2

With 12 transactions, you’ll make $4-8 from BaBW over the course of the game if you draw 1/3 and 2/3 of your deck, respectively.

The very first time Blue Sun bounces an ICE that had become valueless for whatever reason (Yog, Femme token, Parasite/Caissa), you’re typically up $4-8 and it only goes up from there. Ash is also stronger in Blue Sun also since you can pay your entire pool to trace, then bounce something and score an agenda.

For the BaBW value proposition to even start to add up, you’d need to be
(a) increasing the Transaction count significantly
(b) drawing more cards so you see a larger portion of your deck.

A first stab at it might be taking 3x GLC and trying to rush faster and harder in the remote, probably cutting the Scorch package to fit it. If you really go fast then you can skimp on Jacksons, or even take Interns instead to directly install Noise-milled agendas into your scoring remote.


#3

Nasir is meant to be a safety-valve on BS, I think. If you can keep up with the oversights, then BS repeatedly rezzing the same ICE as they use their ID’s flexibility is going to make Nasir a lot of money. Its the assets that I’m worried about…

BaBW’s ability just exists, and there’s no easy way for the runner to interfere with it (apart from Imp, Edward Kim, Demolition Run, …). Your operations are going to be more effective, and you’re going to have more of them.

Slight tangent: I’ve found Wendigo to be entertaining in BWBI-advance-one-ICE-to-the-moon-and-Commercialize decks, because it stalls the inevitable Femme by saying “get a decoder” and then “actually, get a fracter”. Fun card.


#4

The transactions are the preferred target for Jackson recursion. I’m expecting to both draw and play more transactions than 8, definitely something to keep track of during testing, though.

If I were to cut the Scorch package, I could drop the third Jackson and go for 3x GLC instead… wondering whether it’s worth it though.

edit:

I don’t think this is true, strictly speaking - accounting for the install cost, both in clicks and in layering install costs tends to cut into the upswing. Also, this depends on the value of ICE you’re playing… now that you said it, I realized that BaBW should probably be playing a lot of small ICE, where BS wants to be playing fewer, larger pieces (as they can negate the impact of runner tricks on them).


#5

I don’t understand the thought behind not playing scorched earth in Weyland. 4 cards and 2 inf gives you an alternate win condition. I guess it’s hard to get out of the ‘I’ve got scorch so I should murder the runner’ mindset. I understand that it doesn’t win you every game and there are hard counters, but I think you’re better with it than without. Even if you’re going glacier rather than rush.

Cases for BaBW are tricky, though I think @chrism6794 is over stating it slightly. Using Blue Sun isn’t earning you any money (except for shenanigans) it’s just liquefying your assets. BABW might still be slightly richer. A rich corp is a scary corp. I think it likely that BaBW gets out of the gate quicker. This is pretty important.

My only real objection to BS to play is that it seems anti-synergistic with Archer, which is undoubtedly the best ICE in Weyland.

Fitting all the economy in is the problem, you can have 9 for free, 12 if you’re playing commercialization. It’s more card slots than influence that you’re struggling for.

@PeekaySK is right (I think) about little ICE. But fitting a lot of ICE and a lot of Transactions leaves you short for other stuff.


#6

Arguably, its even more powerful to have the runner respecting a win/condition you’re not even playing than having it to back you up if they get froggy. That being said, I’m inclined to take a Scorched package in Weyland too, but if you want an example of when/how its not in your deck’s interest:

–they are dead draws 99% of the game (right up until you win the game with them), so if you have a weak or weaker early game (low ICE count, not as much econ as you wanted, etc.) then running scorch might not make your deck stronger.

–similarly, if you’re playing a program trashing heavy deck, then there might be times that you are particularly porous or vulnerable, and having 3-5 cards clogging up HQ could lose you games when you have nowhere safe to put your agendas.

–you are too tight on influence and/or deck space. Generally, you can find a way to squeeze it in, but that is not a ubiquitously correct assumption. While obviously scorched earth CI runs scorched earth–that deck is so strapped for influence and card space that finding 2+ influence and 4-5 card slots would be trmenedously difficult.


#7

The other problem is that, because you’re playing Weyland, people expect it from you. In NBN, they might pay lip service to it, and occasionally in certain types of Jinteki and HB decks. If you’re a runner playing Weyland, one of the first things you do is start respecting the Scorch, and dig for Plascretes/tag avoidance/money advantage. If you’re playing the SEASource/Scorch combo, all it takes is a single Decoy to effectively neuter 4 of your cards.

Now, if you choose to play without Scorch, then all of a sudden the rush to Plascrete works in your favor, as the runner is wasting time and money searching for and installing these anti-kill cards instead of actively going after your true plans. Not saying that it’s always the best idea, but that it can be a decent plan.


#8

I applaud you trying to breath life in the other Weyland id’s, but I’m afraid BS killed them for good (for competitive play). Reason why is already mentioned, recuperating the cost of even 1 ice that got neutered by the runner might net you more than all the extra $ you get from playing transactions. And that’s just 1 of the advantages.


#9

If you don’t ever want to pull back ice and you want tons of money, BABW is the best Weyland ID. It’s pretty narrow, but it does exist and one of my decks fits there.


#10

This is what I’m trying to explore - is the statement really true? Tell you what… look at the list I posted and tell me:

  • Would it be better just with a straight ID swap?
  • If not, what changes to the decklist would you have to do to for it to be better?

Assume that while making changes, your object is to keep the general playstyle and feel intact - if you can’t do it without changing that dynamic significantly enough for your version to be considered a different deck, we may have a case for BaBW after all!

Mind sharing the list?


#11

I’m pretty much certain that GRNDL is still the best Weyland ID to run a Supermodernism-like rush deck. There’s nothing in BS to help a rushing strategy and let you overscore an Atlas in a 2 deep remote by turn 3. Nothing.


#12

Sure there is, it’s called Oversight AI. Use the ice to score behind, then recoup the costs and you’re way richer than GRNDL started.

Regarding Peekay’s list, I don’t think it’s very good, let alone competitive. Weyalnd’s problem lies in scoring that last agenda once the runner is setup. If it has a good draw, sure it might manage. Most of the time it will not. Recouping a hive gets you 5 creds, you might need to recoup some of the other ice (due to femme, yog, parasite, …) Overall, I think BS would still be better.


#13

You have to see two distinct cards - a big ICE and Ovesight - to pull it off though whereas GRNDL gets you extra money every game from the word go. And Shaper and Anarch can both play D4V1D, run through your curtain wall (or whatever) and de-rez it. Then they’ve stolen your agenda and wrecked your economy for three credits and a programme which they can later pawnshop to get the money back.

Blue Sun is a very powerful ID, but my feeling is that GRNDL is better for rushing. BABW’s place is harder to pin down though - you can rush through your deck with the Clearances I guess?


#14

It’s a combo though. You need ICE that is Oversightable an early agenda and an Oversight AI. GRNDL can start rushing as soon as it sees an agenda. The Supermodernism idea is not top tier, but if you want to play it either GRNDL or BABW are better IDs than BS.

I think hosing GRNDL with only 10 inf looks really unfortunate now. In fact I think all (non prof) IDs with low inf would be playable and not unbalanced with 15. That said, the main criticism of Weyland was their ICE not being up to much. I think Changeling is pretty solid, Wendigo is not nothing - turning off Femme and inside job (though not both together) with one card is a big deal. You don’t need many good ICE to go from weak to competitive.

BS has more bad opening hands than the majority of decks, because it’s a combo deck. If it can survive the early game, it gets really intimidating really fast. Which is why I think NAPD is correct at the moment. The other thing we’re learning is that Oversight AI is a real netrunner card, it can go in decks that aren’t BS and do work.


#15

I took BaBW Transactions for a spin last night and it was pretty average. Not Tier 1 by any means but it does what it’s supposed to do. I was playing GLC and 1 Paywall Implementation over the SEA/Scorch package.

I gained $8 from the ability over 12 turns, assisted by a Jackson that returned 3 transactions to R&D. That’s respectable but I missed having Blue Sun’s ability to bounce an ICE with Knight on it.

While he didn’t play Plascrete, I was still happy to have GLCs over Scorch. It’s so important to see enough agendas to win before the Runner rigs up.

Weyland decks that don’t score early just lose the game, so spending Atlas tokens on getting more agendas instead of saving them for SEA Source is great.


#16

The thing that I found so good in BS is the fact that corp does not have the biggest weakness that all corps have - if you want to keep runner out of server, you have to irreversibly spend money to rez ice.

With BS this is just a temporary thing. You can keep RnD opened for single accesses, then when Maker’s Eye hits, you rez tollbooth, and pick it up again. Install an ice in it’s place. Is it same ice or different ice? Same goes for HQ and for remotes.

Heimdall was such a bad piece of ice because you spend 10 creds for ETR and runner does not go there untill he can get in it easily. With BS you do not spend any money to stop the runner from accessing your remote (barring David).

The money combos (Adonis, OAI and the likes) are just icing on the cake imho. The real power is the fact that you change the way corp plays.


#17

@Stiv, The goal of the thread is to be creative and see what BaBW can do, not what Blue Sun can do.

So far BaBW can (a) efficiently play a transaction based operation economy, and (b) play FAST, not wanting to spare clicks to bounce and re-install ICE.

What else?


#18

If I am not mistaken, the whole point of this thread was something along the lines of

BS came and made weyland good, why was not weyland good before if all BS does is gets some money?

I find this concept flawed.

My point is that BS is not AT ALL about making the money. That’s just icing on the cake.

It’s same as saying “Well noise can trash assets from RnD similarly as Whizzard, why is Whizzard not as good”.

Non BS weylands are just as bad as before because all of the nice weyland ice is just too expensive to rez when runner can then focus elsewhere.


#19

If you compare Hadrian to Heimdall 2.0, it’s immediatelly obvious. Heimdall will stop the runner AND force 2 clicks, or better yet two clicks and a brain damage for access.

HB also has much better traps and bonuses (Ash, Secretary, Corporate Troubleshooter).

IMHO, the best Weyland deck is strictly inferior to the same deck in HB.

The reasons why other Weylands are not as strong (rushy/killy ones) have been mulled over repeatedly, nothing has changed there yet…


#20

As a Runner, I will happily spend 2 clicks and a brain damage any time to steal a 5/3.

I think it’s immediately obvious in the other direction - for a scoring deck the hard ETR of Hadrian is much preferable. And it’s miles better against Shaper where Heimdall 2.0 might as well read “Lose the game to Deus X”.