Blue Sun - Mushin Grid

Flickerwisp · November 5, 2014, 10:32am

To get discussion started, here’s my current list.

Identity: Weyland: Blue Sun: Powering the Future

Cards: 49 / 45
Agenda points: 20 / 20
Influence: 15 / 15

Agenda (8)
1x Government Contracts
1x NAPD Contract
3x Priority Requisition
3x Project Atlas

Asset (3)
3x Jackson Howard ●●●

Ice (14)
3x Caduceus
2x Curtain Wall
3x Enigma
3x Hadrians Wall
3x Hive

Operation (19)
3x Archived Memories ●●●●●●
3x Hedge Fund
2x Mushin No Shin ●●●●
3x Oversight AI
3x Punitive Counterstrike
3x Restructure
2x Successful Demonstration ●●

Upgrade (5)
3x Crisium Grid
2x Off the Grid

Now all the standard Blue Sun stuff is there, big Weyland barriers, OAI for ridiculous starting economy. They are present in basically any Blue Sun deck and don’t require much discussion. The rest of the deck is bit more interesting…

While the deck has a lot of moving parts, the core of the deck is very simple.

In the past, Off the Grid/Crisium Grid has been difficult and expensive to set up. It was simply not worth the effort to set it up and at best, score a 4/2, and then lose the Grid and your 6 credits. Blue Sun changes this dynamic by allowing you to recover both the Grid and your investment once you score.

However, it was still a lot of hoops to run through just for 2 points. But what if you could leverage the Grid combo into scoring a 5/3?

Enter Mushin no Shin.

The synergy it has with Grid and Blue Sun’s ability is just insane. Simply set up Crisium Grid on HQ and ice HQ as you would normally. When you are ready, Mushin a 5/3 out and drop the Grid. Now, the real fun starts next turn. If your 5/3 is a Priority Requisition, you actually have a spare click after scoring it. PriReq is an immensely powerful agenda if you can rez a giant piece of ice with it. Guess what? With Blue Sun, you can! Simply bounce your most expensive piece of ice, and replay it, rezzing with PriReq after scoring.

The above does take time to set up, and since you are running 3 pt agendas, aggressive runners may be able to score out before you can get fully set up. Furthermore, said aggressive runners can harass with Emergency Shutdown, or D4VID or even Quetzal E3. Against these cards, a conventional Blue Sun deck would flounder as it could no longer rely on OAI for its economy and would run everywhere with impunity while you were trying to set up.

Weyland currently has many weaknesses, however, punishing aggressive runners is not one of them. Nothing slows down an aggressive start more than a flatline threat. So naturally, fitting in either SEA Source/Punitive would fix the weakness to aggressive starts.

Given that the Grid combo and Mushins will be taking up space in HQ, it seems unreasonable to expect to be able to hold onto SEA Source and 2 Scorches as well. Given we want to run 5/3s already, Punitive seems by far the better plan.

The above synergies fit together like a glove, and is a deckbuilder’s dream come true.

In my limited testing to date, it has been amazing. In theory, it has a solid Shaper matchup since big barriers are good at keeping green runners out. Anarchs usually run poor, and can fall to the Punitive plan, While D4VID is a huge problem, once the Grid combo is set up there isn’t very much they can do. Criminals can cause a lot of problems, however, there is the Punitive plan to keep them in check.

So now that I’m done gushing about how awesome the deck is, what do you think? What can be improved?

PeekaySK · November 5, 2014, 11:00am

The one card I’m not so convinced about in this build is Hive. How long does it usually take you to get the first agenda scored? Hive is equivalent to a Bastion after the first score, completely useless after the second. This worries me a bit, as the third agenda will definitely be most problematic for you to score, I feel.

Are there any better possibilities for that particular ICE slot? If the ICE count were a bit higher overall, I’d be tempted to consider Archer, with all the PriReqs and OAIs flying around. Sure, it becomes a hard combo piece for you, completely useless for the purposes of normal rezzing, but might work as a decent roadblock for a while.

Also, how critical is the 3x AM? Could one of those slots become a Tollbooth?

bayushi_david · November 5, 2014, 11:06am

I love the concept. I’ll come back with other comments later. Personally though, I find The Cleaners of marginal benefit in a Counterstrike build.

1 Counterstrike becomes 4 damage. Irrelevant most of the time.
2 Counterstrike becomes 8 damage. Still not enough to kill through a Plascrete.
3 Counterstrike becomes 12 damage. You can kill a full grip through a Plascrete.

Is that benefit worth more than the money you’d get from Government Contracts or Eden Fragment (which has significant synergy with Blue Sun)?

Second question, is Hostile Takeover worth it as an additional money source and an easy way to score out?

kiv · November 5, 2014, 2:45pm

First of all I really like the Mushin → OTG combo. I think that if there is any legitimate OTG deck, this is the right way to go.

However, I really don’t think scoring three 5/3s is something you want to do. @bayushi_david’s idea of scoring a Hostile as the 3rd agenda makes a lot of sense to me, as does Eden Fragment.

I’m a huge fan of playing Lotus Field in Blue Sun as it doesn’t get blown out by D4V1D and gives Anarch and Criminal headaches.

I’ll try to test this later, but here’s the list along these lines:

###[Mushin Grid][1] (49 cards)

[Blue Sun: Powering the Future][2]

Agenda (8)

1 [Eden Fragment][3]
2 [Government Contracts][4]
2 [Hostile Takeover][5]
3 [Priority Requisition][6]

Asset (3)

3 [Jackson Howard][7] •••

Upgrade (4)

2 [Crisium Grid][8]
2 [Off the Grid][9]

Operation (19)

2 [Archived Memories][10] ••••
3 [Hedge Fund][11]
3 [Mushin No Shin][12] ••••• •
3 [Oversight AI][13]
3 [Punitive Counterstrike][14]
3 [Restructure][15]
1 [Reuse][16]
1 [Subliminal Messaging][17]

Barrier (8)

2 [Curtain Wall][18]
3 [Hadrian’s Wall][19]
3 [Hive][20]

Code Gate (4)

2 [Datapike][21]
2 [Lotus Field][22] ••

Sentry (3)

3 [Caduceus][23]

bblum · November 5, 2014, 3:42pm

Ah, glad we got a new topic for this deck. It’s totally different than keystone (and IMO way better) so I was getting tired of posting in the keystone thread.

After playing this a bunch, it actually seems competitive with the vanilla glacier deck that uses Ash – Crisium provides the Ash effect, costs more to trash, and you don’t have to pay to trace.

Advantages compared to Ash build:

Save a lot of money because your HQ ice doubles as protecting the remote. (You also can run fewer ice, saving deck slots, but the combo takes up that freed space.)
Can use the combo to protect oversighted curtain walls
The look on your opponent’s face when you show them the combo while HQ takes $15 to get in

Disadvantages:

More combo pieces to assemble and OTG is weak to trashing out of R&D
If the runner can unexpectedly get into HQ twice to kill OTG (e.g. with d4v1d or stimhack) it’s more of a blowout than just losing Ash
Harder to create scoring windows late game by giving the runner an NAPD so you can score immediately after

And to repeat myself for the sake of people who don’t want to wade through the keystone thread, here’s my favoured build:

Mushin-Grid Combo

Blue Sun: Powering the Future (Up and Over)

Agenda (8)
1x Hades Fragment (Up and Over)
1x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)

Asset (3)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Upgrade (6)
3x Crisium Grid (First Contact)
3x Off the Grid (Second Thoughts)

Operation (14)
1x Archived Memories (Core Set) ••
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
1x Interns (Mala Tempora)
3x Mushin No Shin (Honor and Profit) ••••• •
3x Oversight AI (A Study in Static)
3x Restructure (Second Thoughts)

Barrier (9)
3x Curtain Wall (True Colors)
1x Hadrian’s Wall (Core Set)
2x Hive (Double Time)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)

Code Gate (6)
2x Datapike (Creation and Control)
2x Lotus Field i[/i] ••
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••
1x Wendigo (First Contact)

Sentry (3)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Up and Over

Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.

Well, I tried some games with this card (3 or 4 I think), trading 1 wendigo 1 interns for 2 punitives, and the runner installed plascrete every single game. Punitive + archived mem even showed up early and frequently (considering I had 2x/1x not 3x/3x) but it was still totally blank. Perhaps my playstyle is bad for it; I tend to run close to the wire on credits, while punitive requires large piles of cash, even more than just being able to get 14 at start of turn.

Hive is extra important for rushing out the first agenda, especially if it’s Atlas. After that I’m fine with it being blank, because then the Atlas counter helps you assemble the combo much sooner, perhaps before the runner’s rig is complete. I typically find myself IA-ing the Atlas, if I have it, behind 2 ice around turn 4.

I also like HT, but so far in practice games it seems like a given that you’ll be able to rush out Atlas early. And the agenda counter is more valuable than ever in this deck.

On the other hand, if you run 3 HT instead of 2, you get to run archer.

bayushi_david · November 5, 2014, 4:06pm

Architect would be pretty savage in this deck I think - you can go get Crisium or stick down an Off the Grid and an ICE ready for an agenda next turn. Possibly instead of the Lotus’/Tollbooth?

kiv · November 5, 2014, 4:11pm

Tollbooth makes people rage as you move it around and they repeatedly facecheck it and lose three credits. So good!

With three 3-power sentries already I think Architect just makes you weak to Mimic.

bayushi_david · November 5, 2014, 4:16pm

That’s true about Tollbooth, but on the sentry point I wonder if it might be a better choice than Caduceus, which I’ve found to be almost totally useless against The Supplier/Compromised Employee powered Andy build which seems to be everywhere on OCTGN at the moment.

Ajar · November 5, 2014, 4:25pm

Architect also allows you to install a trashed asset from Archives if you can get it to fire.

I think it’s a lot better than Caduceus, the question is whether the deck can afford 4 influence to run 2x.

bblum · November 5, 2014, 4:29pm

Caduceus is always good early, and basically only good late against noise. I’m not in love with it.

Architect seems less good than it would be in NBN, but worth a shot. I’ll try cutting archived mem for it.

Ajar · November 5, 2014, 5:33pm

Also, I really, really want this deck to be awesome.

bblum · November 5, 2014, 6:01pm

Don’t worry, it is.

Chris_Pedersen · November 5, 2014, 7:12pm

I was going to suggest cutting archive for architect. Beat to the punch.

Everyone plays Blue Sun to use the pickup ability for the economy.
I play blue sun’s pickup to make Mother Goddess untyped, and hence unbreakable except via AI.

PeekaySK · November 5, 2014, 8:41pm

Shame she’s got STR 4 then, eh?

cspieker · November 5, 2014, 8:59pm

Swordsman wasn’t a good enough nerf of Atman. We need a strength pi ETR.

PeekaySK · November 5, 2014, 9:07pm

Swordsman would have either needed STR 5 or being a Code Gate to be a nerf to Atman in the first place. Everyone and their grandmother is playing Femme, insta-parasite, or both.

Flickerwisp · November 5, 2014, 9:21pm

Thanks for all the replies! Always nice to have a sounding board when testing new ideas.

Regarding Hive, it becomes a dead card later on. However you do get to recover the cost so it’s not all bad. It also allows you to score the first agenda really easily. The way I play this deck, I usually drop the early game ice out and gradually replace them with Hadrians->curtain wall. So I don’t usually build ice towers which means Eden Fragment has less value in the current build.

Archive Memories is a glue card. It’s there to make sure double Punitive is live, is more OAI if it is safe to go for it, and late game is more Crisium Grids. While certainly useful, I could easily see replacing them for Tollbooth for example.

I don’t agree with Architect being better than Caduceus in this deck. The role of this slot is as early game ice. Early game, you likely will not have anything in Archives to get value from. You are also not rich enough to get value off digging for Grids. So although Caduceus gets hosed easily by link heavy runners, overall I think it does the job better.

I also don’t think Archer is a good fit here. Because of your ID’s ability, once you rez one it acts as a giant lightning rod for their Femme counters or even Parasites which would have been dead cards otherwise. The ice count is also quite low so every ice slot needs to be able to stop them in case you draw it early.

Taking the suggestions so far into account, I guess I could try an alternate build that drops Curtain Wall and OAI and the Archived Memories for 2 Tollbooth, 2 Lotus Field, and GRNDL Refinery. At that point I would drop the Enigmas too and change the agenda package to fit in 1 Eden Fragment.

These changes would make the Punitive plan weaker and would probably mean including Atlas to compensate not having Archived Memories, dropping The Cleaners. However having 2 pt agendas further weakens Punitive. At this point, it may no longer be worth running, but what to replace it with? Assuming the Punitives were dropped, it would allow a more standard agenda package of 1 GoCon, 1 Eden Fragment, 3 Atlas, 3 Corp War and 2 Hostiles.

All in all, this build would be less reliant on OAI and would have an extra outlet for early Mushins in the Refineries. I would consider replacing Hive with Changeling since without Curtain Wall I will likely need to build a tower to keep them out.

Would this be a better direction to take the deck?

bayushi_david · November 5, 2014, 9:29pm

I will say from my Dead Coats experience that having a 3 for 2 that can fetch extra punitives does not, in my experience, weaken it as a strategy. For every occasion that the runner snags two two pointers (turning off punitive), there have been at least three where a Vitruvius counter to recur punitive or being able to never advance the last two points won me the game.

bblum · November 5, 2014, 10:20pm

OAI econ is more non-negotiable in this build than in any other. This deck wants to tear down its remote and turtle on HQ as soon as the first atlas is scored, so can’t defend any asset econ. Mushin-refinery could be good in the midgame, after the 2nd copy of mushin shows up, but I wouldn’t spend the first copy just for money. I would consider a refinery or 2 for the midgame when OAI is less reliable, but in addition to OAI not instead.

Flickerwisp · November 7, 2014, 8:54am

Yeah, having tried it, OAI is definitely the better choice.

Also, Hive is by far the better choice than available alternatives like Changeling since it helps you precisely when you need it to - early game.

I’m still not too sure on the PC plan, and am toying with dropping it in favor of an agenda package like this:

2 PriReq
3 Corp War
3 Atlas
2 Hostile

GoCo and Eden Fragment are also options in the 3pt slots but I prefer having an instant payoff to having to score a 3pt agenda early to benefit.