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Criminal Control Decks: A New Type of Criminal


#1

Mod Note: This thread is for Criminal offshoots of the Shaper Control decks.

I’d love to hear what you guys think of this Silhouette/Blackguard deck with a PPvP engine, lots of overlap with PAD Kate. In slimming it down to 40 cards I cut a Datasucker and PPvP which might have been a mistake?

Je Te Plumerai

Silhouette: Stealth Operative (Honor and Profit)

Event (24)

Hardware (6)

Icebreaker (4)

Program (6)

15 influence spent (max 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.


[Kate] Redefining Shaper Control Decks
#2

This Shaper Control deck (and the discussion of it) basically breaks into two parts. You have your synergistic core economy and run events:

  • Pre Paid Voicepad
  • Dirty Laundry
  • Sure Gamble
  • Lucky Find
  • Quality Time
  • Maker’s Eye
  • Legwork

Note it’s mostly neutral, one influence on Quality Time. You can move this core to any faction.

Then you have your Shaper flavour

Lysander:

  • Clone Chip
  • Self Modifying-Code
  • Parasite (powered by Kate and the two above it really becomes a new Shaper card)

Nordrunner:

  • Test Run
  • Scavenge
  • Professional Contacts

I think it’s certainly worth at least discussing what a criminal flavour might bring to the table:

  • Account Siphon
  • Special Order
  • Planned Assault
  • Inside Job

#3

I’ve actually been supremely interested in whether H&P has enabled Criminal control decks, and I’m glad you have initiated this conversation, as your points are extremely well-reasoned.

My first question is, why Silhouette? I’d think Ken Tenma would synergize very well with PPVP and his extra influence would help immensely (or Andy with her strong start and mulligan). I’d also be interested if you could go full tag-me with no Plascretes but rather with Theophilius Bagbiter. With 3 PPVPs in play, you can still Lucky Find from zero if you get Closed Accounts. I haven’t messed with Criminals since Opening Moves, so I’m probably not the guy to ask about such topics.

Edit: herp derp he’s a resource. Told you I’m not qualified for such conversations!


#4

I started my Pad Kenpaign deck largely inspired by @Lysander and partly because once I thought of the name I had to make the deck. :smiley:

Here’s where it is at right now. My own unprofessional opinion is that it’s more ‘inspired by’ than aiming for true control.

Pad Kenpaign v0.53

Ken “Express” Tenma: Disappeared Clone (Honor and Profit)

Event (29)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
1x Forged Activation Orders (Core Set)
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Lawyer Up (True Colors)
3x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
1x Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) •••
2x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••••
1x Planned Assault (Honor and Profit)
1x Retrieval Run (Future Proof) ••
3x Special Order (Core Set)
1x Stimhack (Core Set) •
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
1x The Maker’s Eye (Core Set) ••

Hardware (8)
3x Desperado (Core Set)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
3x Prepaid VoicePAD (Second Thoughts)

Resource (1)
1x Kati Jones (Humanity’s Shadow)

Icebreaker (7)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
1x Gordian Blade (Core Set) •••

17 influence spent (max 17)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit


#5

…and the obvious question is:

Can this core work for Anarch too? After packing 3x QT and 3x Lucky Find, you still have 6 influence… that’s enough for 3 Clone Chips, which makes Noise and his virus shenanigans an intriguing option.

Also notably improved by PPVP: Demolition Run, Singularity, Deja Vu. Opinions?


#6

Hey, make your own PPVP thread, this is about Criminals! :stuck_out_tongue:


#7

Glad you guys made it over here :smile:

Which identity to use is a good question. Honestly I just started by trying an Honour and Profit update on a great deck that went mostly unnoticed http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/2787/gryfalia-s-aerie-store-champion-3-1-14-25-players-6-1- As you can see he has 5 spare influence… Lucky Find… heck why not the whole Shaper Control core!

Ken certainly would be a synergy upgrade and the extra influence would be gladly sucked up by Lucky Find. Haven’t played against him but I guess I just don’t find him scary yet?

Silhouette, like CT, has the smaller deck as well as a potentially powerful mechanic. Actually a question I’d like to ask you guys is which cards in the PPvP core would you run more than three copies of if you could? Helps cut it down to 40 cards and reveals the answer to how much advantage there is in the smaller deck size. Also, do you think the PPvP core fast enough for a Phase 1 deck like Silhouette or Gabriel?

Good question Peekay. I’d say the drawback to this is the influence cost and I find my Anarchs usually desperate for that since they can’t tutor one ofs.


#9

Blackguard is just something you have to see in action. Depleting a Corp’s credits is incredibly powerful. Just think of it this way, their testing team thought it needed to cost 11. In the last Blackguard game I watched the corp was forced to rez a blank hive twice in one turn. You could also force the rez on Adonis or Sansan, draining cash before you trash them. Primarily though, it lets you control where and when the corp commits resources to defence. It might end up being too slow and inconsistent to be top tier but it’s great when you have it out.


#10

What Will said, plus one small tidbit: Blackguard means you can’t install ICE in advance, you have to be willing to rez a piece before you slap it down. That’s taking a lot of corp flexibility - you can’t react to the situation at hand, you have to react at least a turn in advance.


#11

As corp, I’m glad to see blackguard+snitch hit the table. That’s 14 credits used for an effect that can usually be gotten for free by facechecking. I can usually control my credit pool and ICE well enough for it not to be a problem. Sometimes it gets annoying (e.g. forcing a sansan, eve/adonis, or grim), but it’s nowhere near as annoying as some other things those 14 credits could have done.


#12

I get the feeling that Blackguard + Snitch only really shines in decks running Anarch tech - namely, Xanadu and Rook. The best Blackguard builds I’ve seen were actually Reina decks, further leveraging the synergy with her ability.


#13

I dig the deck, but why 1 Kati with no way to fetch her, when you’re running LARLA and no SOT?

I’d cut the FAO, 2 Lawyer Ups, Kati, Stimhack and RR, and add in 2x SOT, a 2nd Maker’s Eye, a 2nd Planned Assault, add a Mimic with the spare influence (still excellent vs. many Ice early even without Suckers), and maybe a catch-all breaker like Crypsis, 3rd Femme, or backup Breach in case of Shutdowns.

Solid start though. I think Ken will be excellent in this type of build.


#14

I have my own take on a criminal control deck. Not sure if this deserves a separate thread, so I’ll leave it up to the mods.

It beats NBN really hard, but it was the only corp I tested against. I fear that against Cerebral Imaging I probably could resign right away… Also I fear this deck might get boring really quick just like its nemesis CI. Nevertheless here it goes:

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/5192/situation-under-control
Iain Stirling: Retired Spook (Honor and Profit)

Event (17)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Calling in Favors (Honor and Profit)
3x Hostage (Opening Moves)
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Special Order (Core Set)
1x Stimhack (Core Set) •
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (3)
3x Logos (Honor and Profit)

Resource (18)
3x Compromised Employee (Trace Amount)
3x Fall Guy (Double Time)
1x John Masanori (Opening Moves)
3x New Angeles City Hall (Future Proof)
1x Professional Contacts (Creation and Control) ••
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
1x The Helpful AI (What Lies Ahead) ••
1x The Source (Creation and Control) ••
3x Underworld Contact (A Study in Static)

Icebreaker (6)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
2x Passport (Honor and Profit)

Program (1)
1x Keyhole (True Colors) •••

10 influence spent (max 10)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Instructions

This guy likes to take it slow.

  • When to mulligan

You need at least one card from the Sure Gamble / Hostage / Pro Contacts pool. Otherwise mull. If you feel advanterous you could also keep a Keyhole starting hand without any of the above cards - it will slow you down, but this deck isn’t about being quick anyways.

  • Setup your cards

Pro Contacts is the best card to hit the table at the beginning of a game. Then you have two most important things to achieve - bring your Underworlds online (Hostage -> The Helpful AI) and setup Logos. Early Logos is very important, since it is a tutor for your main weapon - Keyhole. After they score the first agenda, grab your free Keyhole and Hostage for The Source immediately. Play other resources whenever you have a click to spare, New Angeles should be one of your priorities.

  • Do the trick

Siphon with New Angeles, Keyhole, repeat. Do not try to steal agendas - mill them. Then grab your prize from the Archives all at once when enough points amass. If at any point in the game you really need to break into the remote, use Siphon / Femme / Inside Job. Sometimes it is necessary to liberate an agenda from the remote… Make sure you have 3 creds to pay for The Source, spare Fall Guy on the table and a fresh New Angeles ready to go. When you are positive mid game they dont run Scorched, it is possible to go tagme since Closed Accounts do nothing against this deck (5c for the start then Calling In Favors for like 6 or 8 creds)… Stimhack is sometimes useful for the final glory Archives run to pay for the NAPDs.

It was very refreshing to play something totally different, hope you like it.


#15

PPVP definitely makes Running Interference way stronger, since most of the time for me it just wound up being an expensive inside job, making it cost 1-2 credits really takes the sting out of that and makes the delta between your credits and the corps that much more punishing. I feel like Ken’s emphasis on run events might make room for like, 1 public terminal? Either in addition to or instead of 1 PPVP? I like to run 4 link cards in underworld contacts decks, and feel like getting that 4th recurring credit will really up your consistency and not leave you drawing too hard for PPVP’s to start rolling out your econ.


#16

Thanks for the feedback! :smile: I actually played against Lysander’s NBN last night and lost, but held out okay.

  • I put Kati in there originally in case the game goes long, but as you correctly pointed out there is a LARLA to reset things. The lack of SOT is something I need to rectify as well. Maybe a straight swap Kati for SOT. Sometimes it’s nice to just stack up 12c or 15c on her when the econ draws go dry. Tough call. Whenever I’m playing she doesn’t feel like a dead draw, so that’s why I’m not 100% on dropping her.
  • I’d really like to keep the Lawyer Ups. They synergize perfectly with Account Syphon or any tag removal plus I get to draw 3 cards.
  • Stimhack and RR I’m okay with losing. They often feel like dead draws, but RR has saved me once. SH could go for sure.
  • Mimic feels a bit duplicative with 3x Faerie and 2x Femme already in there. I definitely don’t think I’d want to go 3x Femme, feels like 2x is enough. Maybe a second Corroder to get my breaker suite out faster - I tried playing with a 1x of the central specific breakers before but never liked it, always felt like a dead draw and a signal to the Corp to just drop things in remote. Crypsis always has potential, but feels slow on the face for this deck?

#17

Took Silhouette to a Netrunner night, played Blackguard every game, won every game. It is the most cruel deck I’ve played. 3 Account Siphon and 2 Planned Assault in a 40 card deck means you have one in your starting hand 51% of the time (compare that to 30% in Andromeda with 3 Siphon 3 SOT). My opponents responded well with scary HQ ICE but I was able to turn it against them. Basically once you have Blackguard out, the Corp will be so disrupted that they often aren’t able to orchestrate a recovery. First game I put out Sneakdoor Beta, exposing and forcing the rez on an HQ Koimanu, Emergency Shutdown, waited for him to get 5 credits and exposed it again. All the while I was accessing HQ, forcing the rez of his R&D and remote ICE leaving him no credits to respond with. Often I knew every piece of ICE my opponents had out. Four credits this turn? Ok, now lets rez that Rototurret over there. In another game it was even tougher for the Corp with a Shinobi trying to keep me out of HQ. He had no choice but to rez it against Blackguard and I hit it with multiple Emergency Shutdowns. With triple Account Siphon on top of this (1 from Planned Assault) he was never able to get going, despite a fairly solid economy.

Changes to the deck. I’ll be putting a third Special Order back in. It’s much better in this deck than in the Andromeda with Professional Contacts I was playing before, especially when PPvP makes it free. I never ended up playing a Snitch and actually I’m not sure they’re even needed. Silhouette is a potential expose every turn, you don’t need to clog your deck with things like Infiltration. The new Jinteki ICE is scary, might need to rework the rig a little. Inazuma is crazy good and will require lots of Datasucker counters, Yog is struggling a bit these days. But I’m more worried about having enough Datasucker counters for the new Sentries like Susanoo-No-Mikoto and Shinobi. I’m thinking switch Ninja in for Mimic and add a Datasucker.

-2 Snitch
-1 Mimic
+1 Ninja
+1 Datasucker
+1 Special Order

Running Interference certainly is an interesting card here. Just how much better than unplayable it becomes I’ll have to see with testing. Kyu had it in his tournament deck and he didn’t have Planned Assault or Silhouette so I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt for now. Think about a turn like this:

You see an opening and play Planned Assault to find the one Running Interference in your deck. Planned Assault takes care of the additional click cost and maybe it’s further discounted by Prepaid VoicePAD. Blackguard with Snitch forces them to rez Victor 2.0 guarding their HQ for 10 credits. Derez with Crescentus after you click through, they’re not keen on paying double for their remaining ICE and let you continue to HQ. Silhouette then exposes Victor 2.0 again to make them pay another 10.


#19

Running Interference imposes an additional cost to rezzing ICE; it does not increase the rez cost. This means that corps can decline to rez ICE being exposed with Blackguard in play, because Blackguard only forces them to pay rez costs, not additional costs. See the FAQ for a similar ruling on Blackguard vs Archer.


#20

My point is there are more Account Siphons coming at you than ever before which makes what is fundamentally a credit denial deck better than you might think. It doesn’t matter if Blackguard surprises them, like PeekaySK said the only real counter is not installing ICE in advance.

So my opponents should have responded to a ** Sneakdoor Beta ** assault by putting more ice on their HQ and trashing a perfectly good Koimanu? Or that pop-up window on HQ is the correct response to an Account Siphon onslaught? You seem to have forgotten that they still need to heavily guard their HQ. The whole point of this deck is to trap them between heavily guarding their HQ and punishing them for heavily guarding their HQ. Wait until you’ve seen Blackguard in a game once. My opponents were high quality and I didn’t see any play mistakes.

@fluffdasheep Good call, I remember that Archer ruling. Hmm I’ll still wait until I’ve played Running Interference once before I cut it, but it’s on notice.

I’m thinking of adding Lawyer Up, pretty good for free and I think the popularity of Scorched Earth has gone up with H&P so I’m not so comfortable with tags. Also Forged Activation orders could be great with the amount of information this deck gains (and again probably free). My question for you guys is what would you cut? The deck is so lean already at 40 cards.

All in all my opinion of the deck has gone up after the first round of playtesting. I was afraid it would be a bit of a gimmick deck. But money wasn’t a problem with the great PPvP engine Lysander has popularized and I found Blackguard does not need anything besides Silhouette so it’s no longer a combo deck. It’s a brutal credit denial deck with high information, good qualities for high level play.


#21

How about this?

Silhouette: Stealth Operative (Honor and Profit)

Event (23)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
1x Indexing (Future Proof) •••
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Lawyer Up (True Colors)
3x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••••• •
1x Feint (Honor and Profit)
1x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
2x Planned Assault (Honor and Profit)

Hardware (7)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
3x Prepaid VoicePAD (Second Thoughts)
2x Blackguard (Fear and Loathing)

Resource (3)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (3)
3x Knight (Mala Tempora) ••••• •

Program (4)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)
2x Snitch (Cyber Exodus)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Knight is all you need to land the siphon->expose->shutdown combo. If you stumble against something not knightable or lose your knights, you Feint your way to HQ and shutdown stuff. Trigger Legwork and Indexing when they are broke.

Probably too risky as Knights can get trashed… Maybe a backup Crypsis would help? Thoughts?


#22

Yeah you would definitely lose your knights in a hurry and get stuck. They’d be all too happy to trash unrezzed ice with a Knight on it, especially with no sign of other breakers.