You’re stating here that Ppvp is better in the metas because it allows burst economy with good events…which is like Underworld contacts in what way exactly?
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Few things are worse for the health of a game than the community taking balance into their own hands. The current nastiness of the American side of the community will only grow stronger now that there’s this precedent.
Splitting the community between tournaments that follow “community” rules and those that follow FFG’s will only drive more people out of the game. You can already see in the comments people talking about how Faust shouldn’t be in, but D4v1d will and how it’s actually neither that needs to be hit but Chronotype. And they’ll get hundreds of people talking about how you should have nerfed NEH instead.
This is a wedge that is harming the community, and this kind of moves will only make it even worse. I think the organizers are in their right to do this, but the consequences will be far worse than they think.
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I’m curious to see if FFG stops sending them tournament kits because of something like this as well…
I thought Damon’s six-month rule was how long he was allowed to wait to eat pizza off the ground.
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I wish I could up vote this a hundred times. I nearly spewed soda all over myself.
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Are we seeing actual movement towards “community rules tournaments?” Very concerning.
Edit: I missed the Great Lakes announcement. This is bad.
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Museum of History is not an MWL cantidate. The card is not excessively powerful. In a setting different from the ones governed by floor rules we realistically have to deal with, it’s a pretty reasonably balanced 1/3, and I would be hardpressed to argue it is more powerful than any other card on the corporation MWL in infinite length games.
I played an early version of Hot Tub Time Machine for fun once at the local store on a Saturday. It had no Mumbad Construction Co or way to score, only 1 Contract Killer and a Blacklist that occasionally goes mia around Levy o’ Clock. I threatened the Sea Scorch Scorch combo early on so he stopped running. I used Salem’s Hospitality to individually take cards away 1 by 1 from a Whizzard with Levy. He used the time to build the rig he most preferred and collect as many credits as possible. The final turn before Contract Killer threatened to kill him, he ran R&D with a Medium about 3 times and got something like six fresh accesses. Combined with the accesses he got in the earlier phases of the game, he was short of the standard ~18 accesses to win a game of netrunner, but not horribly so. Without Plascretes in his list yet, I’d say the matchup was 45-55 Gagarin’s favor. Hardly broken. The issue was not at all that putting Museum of History in my deck made my chances of winning unacceptably far beyond 50%. The issue was that the game took 2 hours, with two players with a track record of never/rarely going to time with other archetypes.
The standard shell for MoH, is IG of course. You can replace that story with IG if you want to. A Kate that is Net shielding or FFing most of IG’s damage or a Whizzard that is having partial success disrupting IG’s damage output it analagous to a runner not running to keep Sea Source turned off, just different.
MWL is appropriate for powerful cards, but not for cards that create a tournament round completion issue. That’s because a card that is seen too commonly can have an ideal representation rate between 0 and 100%. We don’t want to see Desperado in 0% of decks, that could be the same level of variety as before it was restricted! So Desperado is MWL’ed instead of banned. We would be delighted to see Desperado in 20-80% of decks.
But for a card that risks not completing a tournament set by virtue of its properties, the optimal amount of representation is 0%. We never want that. It’s never ok. Players are owed a match result by the game itself, and furthermore a match result that matches the merit of their decisions as closely as possible - so we prefer real wins to timed wins.
Museum of History is very similar to Sharazad in MtG: an operation that causes both players to play a game of MtG where the winner of that extra game gets to damage their opponent for half their life total (it would be like scoring half the points you need to get to 7). You can’t be sure who will win the extra game, but it can be used like Medical Research fundraiser in that maybe having both players risk damage is something you want, but power-level wise it’d be like a Medical Research Fundraiser that costs 5, not very appealing. Even in the format of MtG where cards are never banned for being too powerful, Vintage, Sharazad is banned, but because actual playtesting with the card reveals that there is a very high risk the game will not complete in a timed tournament round. It has nothing to do with the strength of the card. People may tell you about long or looping combos that involve the card, but all of them can replace Sharazad with a Neural EMP and win the game when you’re looping that instead.
That doesn’t mean you absolutely have to throw a hissy fit and stamp and throw away every card that slows down the game at all. It’s just sometimes, when you go to test these things, you discover an issue, and you ban them immediately.
People disagree about the data we have and how much data we need to say there’s enough of a time issue that MoH needs a ban. That’s fine, everyone’s a different Snowflake with a different opinion. I’ve played with and against the card several times in a tournament setting and have my own informed opinion on whether it merits a ban. I know players who are equally informed and have a different opinion than me on that and that’s fine.
If you think that MoH needs to be on the MWL though, you are just wrong. MWL doesn’t address the issues. It happens to accent them, actually, since as the deck loses power level it would seem more likely to stall out on its ability to kill people in a timely manner. You need to think things through more. The card belongs nowhere near the MWL, ever.
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I’ve been keeping quiet on these threads for a while (adding specific cards to the MWL, and alternate formats in general), but I am now becoming concerned about the future direction of the game. I am now concerned that we will start to actively split the community with these alternate tournament formats and deck building rules. The netrunner community isn’t very large as it is, and subdividing us is much more likely to harm the whole than help any part.
Regardless of how you feel about any MWL, card bans, or errata, I hope that most of us recognize that fracturing our small community is not likely to bring more people into the game.
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“Shut up and eat your vegetables.”
…
I know of no evidence to suggest that players choosing to participate in alternate formats will cause the community to fracture. That sounds like nonsense fear mongering. Kudos to the ANRPC exploring new ways to enjoy the game we all love so much.
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So what you’re saying is that the Americans are the problem?..
I think that a player run tournament is exactly the place to try out different cards on the MWL or banned cards or whatever. They can afford to try to play with the rules to see what might work for their meta in a way that FFG will never be able to. I think that it’s interesting to see the results in the specific regional tournaments.
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Have you seen our presidential race?
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I think that a player led tourney is a good idea. Obviously not for FFG sanctioned events, but we do need some more variety, and this provides a way to make GNKs more enjoyable.
But MCH and MOH on MWL makes no sense. That deck already has a lot of spare influence, a hit of 6 is little problem.
Point taken.
If you mean the IG deck, I think it’s actually really hurt by that. The loss of 6 influence means it probably can’t play Hive or Mills. Hive especially contributes to how oppressive it is, and it will roll over to slums without mills to get rid of it.
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I can’t wait to not be able to find a game on Jinteki.net because of stuff like this:
“ANRPC only!”
“FFG official rules, MWL compliant, no Museum!”
“Testing flashpoint, ANRPC pls!”
“insert some other non official format here!!!”
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Does it come down to a question of whether it’s pushed as a “cool variant” or an attempt at an “alternative standard”?
(I mean the actual variation itself is such a small tweak as to not obviously appear to be one or the other!)
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We only have enough players for one premiere format. If the point is to player around with the rules for a player run tournament for funzies, I have no idea why there aren’t further changes for additional funzies, but it’s cool. If the point is to try to fork off a different format and treat it like a different, competing, premiere format, I have to agree with those that say we can’t afford to have two of those.
If it’s to serve as a testing ground for changes to our premiere FFG format, I hope it’s being done in cooperation with Damon to make sure it’s the kind/style of changes he’s interested in entertaining.
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First of all, I’ve been going to as many regionals as I can make it to, and I haven’t experienced any nastiness in the community here. I think you’re comparing online trolling to your real life meta, and assuming our real life meta is full of people being asses to each other all the time.
And really, hundreds of people? I know the last GLC event had ~16. If by “far worse” consequences, you mean people don’t show up to FFG events, I think you’re overestimating how big of a deal this is. If the worse consequences you mean are the facebook comments, I think we’re going to be okay.
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It’s not “nonsense fear mongering”, historically the results of alternative “community” rules has been exactly that: The community fracturing.
If the rulesets were very different (Rotational vs Non-Rotation), it could work. But both rulesets here cannot coexist and, hence, will divide the community.