Double Use of a Regional Bye

[Alsciende]

Something happened during Regional tournaments in Europe, I wasn't there so I'll just copy what I read on Facebook for all to see here. My question is: have you already had this kind of problem? What should be done, in this case in particular, and for all tournaments in general? Is it the TO's fault?

Jérémie Karras, May 12

It appears that mtgred used his regional bye twice already (Brussels in belgium and Leiden in Netherlands).
That kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable.
The netrunner community of Liege City Grid isn't pleased, sir. I bet it will not be the only one.
Spread the word.
PS : witnesses MrMint (myself) et al. (Brussels), Constantine Kelfecil Chr et al. (Leiden).

Constantine Kelfecil Chr, May 12

Yep, I agree with Jérémie. I blame myself for not having done my research when you handed over the regionals bye, but generally that's just not nice and I wouldn't like to see that again. We are building the community based on how nice everyone is and thus I don't have have to research everyone's history when they visit one of the tournaments I'm TOing/ Head Judging.

Having said that, I would like not to make too much of a big deal out of this and just leave it as it is for now. People have to take note of this situation though and understand that this is just unacceptable, and next time, I won't hesitate DQing anyone that will show such behaviour. I won't really care how far they travelled or what not.

Joffrey Collard, May 12

Apparently mtgred forgot to bring his card at brussels regional and the TO considered it was ok anyway. Guess he used it in Netherlands since he had not give it away on the previous regional event.

Minh Tran, May 13

I was late at the tournament in Leiden. Players were supposed hand their decklist at 10h20 at the latest. I actually arrived at 10h50 with no decklist ready. I was affraid of getting a game loss for late arrival as it was the case in the Store Championship in Ghent where i was also late. The bye was a good excuse to buy time to write the decklists without delaying the tournament. I shouldn't have done it and would like to apologize for the bad behaviour.

[BJester]

If anything, the problem lies with the first store, who accepted a nonexistent bye, based on words only. Minh had the bye with him in the Netherlands, so there was no reason to believe otherwise here.

[Ahein]

What should be done, in this case in particular, and for all tournaments in general? Is it the TO's fault?

TO's should take all BYEs away from the players and that is what I am going to do. This was the only mistake from TO's but I wouldn't blame at all. If a player wants to cheat he will always find some way. I find using same BYE twice very harsh cheating and would DQ the player instantly. But I don't want comment this case because there is not yet enough information.

EDIT Reading again seems like TOs accepted the BYE without the BYE card. This I find a mistake from the TOs also but this doesn't change the potential cheating of using same BYE twice.

[TheRedArmy]

If anything, the problem lies with the first store, who accepted a nonexistent bye, based on words only. Minh had the bye with him in the Netherlands, so there was no reason to believe otherwise here.

Based on what we know right now, this.

I find using same BYE twice very harsh cheating and would DQ the player instantly

And this.

[Calimsha]

The store policy was to let the player keep their card anyway. A couple of players like to keep those as memorabilia and I think it's understandable.
Minh won a SC in Belgium and the entire belgian community knew it so I think it's pretty safe for the TO to accept the bye because Minh said a couple days ago that he lost his bye card.

What is wrong here is to abuse the system because the dutch community doesn't communicate to our belgian community as much.

:/

[mtgred]

I couldn’t find my bye card before the tournament in Brussels and several people confirmed I did win a Store Championship. You can’t blame the TO in Brussels for giving a bye to a player who lost his card.

My behaviour at the Leiden tournament was bad and i’m the one to be blamed here, not the TO.

[Terrificy]

The bye was a good excuse to buy time to write the decklists without delaying the tournament. I shouldn't have done it and would like to apologize for the bad behaviour.

The bye was a really, really bad excuse, and using 'I didn't want to delay the tournament' is an even worse excuse - Minh wanted to avoid a Game Loss and did so in quite a dishonourable fashion - though I do get why you'd do such a thing under pressure.
The thing that really puzzles me is; if you already used your bye but forgot the card, why would you even bring the card to another tournament? How can this be anything but malicious intent?
You can't say "oh, I had it in my wallet already" or something like that - if you forgot it for one tournament and you bring it to another, it really seems like something you did on purpose.

The store policy was to let the player keep their card anyway. A couple of players like to keep those as memorabilia and I think it's understandable.

Same thing in Denmark, so the TO kept all byes and will give them back after the Regionals season. Now, it's quite unlikely that anyone of us will travel further than the Aarhus Regional, where the TO from Copenhagen will be present (the TO from Aarhus was also present in Copenhagen, by the way), so it is very unlikely that anyone could abuse keeping their card, but it's still a nice safety measure.

[TheRedArmy]

The store policy was to let the player keep their card anyway. A couple of players like to keep those as memorabilia and I think it's understandable.

If I were a TO, I would say it's more understandable that I want to ensure the integrity of my (and others') tournaments by collecting (and retaining) the cards.

Same thing in Denmark, so the TO kept all byes and will give them back after the Regionals season.

This seems like a reasonable setup. Players who live further away could just have theirs mailed to their address, assuming they are willing to leave it with the TO.

[mtgred]

The bye was a really, really bad excuse, and using 'I didn't want to delay the tournament' is an even worse excuse - Minh wanted to avoid a Game Loss and did so in quite a dishonourable fashion - though I do get why you'd do such a thing under pressure.

It’s just an explanation of what happened. It definitely doesn’t excuse the bad behaviour.

[BJester]

Can we please stop turning this thread in a Bash mtgred thread? We all can agree or not, I don't think most of us here know mtgred enough to make such claims. Let's just try and avoid these issues in the future

I think the jinteki.net discussion was enough.

[vinegarymink]

I'm not sure if this thread is likely to achieve very much, and may well lead to a witch hunt. Discussing these situations in a vacuum is fine, but once people are named it risks becoming pretty toxic.

[Ahein]

I agree namecalling is irrelevant and doesn't lead anywhere. But as an example this situation should not be forgotten.

As a Nationals/Regionals judge myself I can say it is very high barrier to DQ players or give game losses due to serious misplays. As a judge you are alone without any guidelines. Also you don't want be a "dick" so it is easier to just brush problems under the carpet. The general attitude "Netrunner players are very friendly and mature so this is not needed" makes this even harder. I am not saying cheating happens but this makes the potential problems even harder to solve and ignore the problem easier solution to choose. It would be FFGs responsibility to help organizers with some guidelines but I don't have big hopes that happening. That's why it is important to discuss these examples in public and judges should be encouraged to be strict but fair.

I classify double BYE usage quite major cheating and straight DQ even after tournament would be correct choice.

[Arkhon]

Agree with @vinegarymink.
For the record, people turning up late is a big problem. You want to be an understanding community and be as inclusive as possible but it messes everyone around tremendously when players turn up late - especially as some tournament software can't really cope with it. I don't know how robust the new FFG thing is - any ideas?

Be there for the published start time, or at least call ahead if you're running late in order to be included. Super Bye or not, I'd award a game loss for a late player. It's just good manners to arrive on time and it penalises the 50+ people who made the effort to set off in good time if TOs will allow tardiness.

woaaa this was clearly misunderstood guys

Yeah, you can't really just put an emoticon at the end of something to make it ok. You may know those two, but the vast majority on here don't know you, them or that you are pals IRL. So your comment just comes across as flagrant racism. Take a more considered approach next time.

[x3r0h0ur]

I think you have to be understanding that in their culture it is not as big of a deal, and given that you don't know his relationship with Minh, being upset on Minh's behalf is unnecessary.

As for the use of double bye, I believe Minh should be disqualified from competing in nationals. I get that Minh might be a community favorite, but this behavior can't be condoned, and a strong example set, to avoid setting a weak precedent. If we want this game to be popular competitively, we can't give people things like this to laugh at. We already have a laughable competitive scene coming off the tail of FFG announcing a top 16 cut at 200+ tournaments twice now.

[Terrificy]

However, one must consider that this is not a theoretical discussion of whether any disciplinary action should be taken if an event such as this were to happen; it is moreso a discussion of an event, how to solve this and prevent events like this in the future.

People are not having their pitchforks out for Minh, but are rather discussing how to handle this situation (which could have involved any player).

I don't know how robust the new FFG thing is - any ideas?

I wouldn't touch it - yet. It has potential but it is obviously not something I would use.

[Arkhon]

given that you don't know his relationship with Minh, being upset on Minh's behalf is unnecessary

Who says I'm being upset on someone else's behalf?

[x3r0h0ur]

I just meant you in the sense of anyone offended by his joke about asians, not you specifically.

[Arkhon]

Yeah, and what I meant was that people are entitled to be offended by it for themself, not on somebody else's behalf. I don't care what his relationship with Minh is, if somebody says "you can't trust asians" and describes it as "the problem" with them, that is offensive.

I realise it was meant in jest as "banter" between people who know each other, but there are plenty of other people who use this forum who might not interpret it as such.

[tomdidiot]

As a TO, I've been on the verge of giving people Game losses for being late returning from a lunch break - it is unacceptable to return late when I've clearly stated that the next round is starting at a certain time when you're already in the area. Just because you want a nicer lunch doesn't mean you are allowed to go wandering off and saunter into Round 3 15 minutes late. If we delayed post-lunch rounds because of these people, that's 15 minutes after I want to go home, 15 minutes after everoyne else wants to go home, and 15 minute after the shop employee wants to go home.

Game losses for the first round/transport delays are generally a bit harsh though, especially in the Greater London area where people rely on public transport, so if someone can prove to me that the trains were running late, I'll waive the game loss, though they'd still be penalised slightly by having opponents' mod Wins be shifted to full wins. If they can't demonstrate to me that there are transport delays, I think game losses are more than fair.

[dashakan]

So how do people feel about the same person using different byes at different regionals?