my ready-for-multithreader list, edited from your solidarity list above:
Event (5)
3 Diesel
2 Scavenge
Hardware (12)
1 Astrolabe
3 Clone Chip
2 CyberSolutions Mem Chip
1 HQ Interface••
2 Plascrete Carapace
3 R&D Interface
Program (15)
2 Atman
1 Cerberus “Lady” H1
1 Cyber-Cypher
2 Datasucker••
1 Imp•••
1 Inti
1 Mimic•
2 Multithreader••
1 Parasite••
2 Self-modifying Code
1 Sharpshooter
Resource (14)
2 Armitage Codebusting
2 Earthrise Hotel
2 Film Critic
2 Order of Sol
3 Personal Workshop
3 Street Peddler•••
Zero currents in my meta (outside of the occasional ELP in RP) and I don’t care much for makers eye with RDI’s around, so these were easy cuts to bring back scavenges (might go to 2x RDI 1x makers eye, idk). Imp for medium, and -1 film critic for +1 plascrete; SEA source is back with a vengeance around here…
very initial test shows the atman + multithreader rig to be bonkers; a lot of synergy between these cards. I want a way to get back the 3rd SMC but the deck is already at 46.
I’m trying the 2x SMC after several games where I didn’t use it at all (either ran out of MUs, or drew what I needed). 3x Diesel, 3x Peddler, and 2x Earthrise supply a steady stream of cards, so I feel I need tutoring slightly less. Could be a mistake, more testing needed.
The Medium ↔ Imp question is tough. I’m going to try both and see where I end up.
I think you definitely have enough draw in there. Seems like a good cut.
As to Medium/Imp question, I think both are very powerful right now, and Medium is arguably the best card against NEH Fastro. Both are weak to CVS, but really there’s not much you can do about that. The loss of d4v1d is probably a bigger hit than the loss of Imp, though. Glad you’re testing out Multithreader (I’ve yet to do so).
Thoughts on Multithreader:
This seems great with Gordian, and might be reason enough to add it back in with a stimhack or two. The question I have for running Multithreader is that of memory. Is it worth it to drop the Cyber-Cypher (this card has been the BEST breaker for me, so I am unsure). Do you usually only get the one online or do you end up with both on the board? Does Creeper (instead of Mimic) become appealing in a world where we can maybe get free MU with Toolbox and pump it easily? Can Datasucker and Multithreader be a reasonable part of the rig without much fuss?
Agreed on all counts. I’m still undecided on whether cutting D4v1d is suicidal or not. 4inf is a lot. I’m probably harming my BS matchup, but that’s a price I’m willing to pay if I’m improving other matchups.
The current build is going for CyCy and 2x Atman rather than Gordian Blade. I don’t expect to hit many servers, so that composition makes sense. I also get a lot of mileage out of DS and Parasite.
I try to end up with both Multithreaders on the board. The econ is magnificent. And they’re great PW targets.
I don’t see Creeper working. One, it’s 5c to install. Two, 2c to break is atrocious. Three, the base 2str is low. Killers are Shaper’s weakest breakers, I doubt we’ll ever see a Shaper Killer that is worth playing. Also, if you’re planning on getting Toolbox on the table, you’re probably going to be too slow – Toolbox is another strain on the PW bottleneck. Same reason I removed Femme, it’s amazing but without PW I cannot support it.
For MUs, I’m experimenting with 1x Astrolabe, 2x CyberSolutions Mem Chip. It seems to be working so far, getting either early is enough, and then you get another one in the mid- to late-game and you’re set. This build is definitely MU-intensive.
I prefer 2x CyCy over Gordian too. It’s just so cheap!
Your use of recursion brings up another consideration related to my own preference for Imp. We have only so much recursion to go around and in many ways have to divide them up between the cards that really need it: d4v1d, Imp, Parasite, CyCy, Lady. Your build has the benefit of cutting two of those, letting you focus more on ice destruction and to move your CyCy around more if you need to. My build has me recurring Imp more often, and going for value digs on R&D with a few Interfaces and the Maker’s, kinda like PPVP Kate does. I’ve lately only been using Parasite on last-minute Pop-Up rezzes that the corp would try to use to ruin my day. I rarely use it early noticing that if I do, I usually get behind. Generally, I just throw it on Workshop until it’s really needed.
I’m excited to play with more D&D. Oh, and if you haven’t run into Archangel online yet, it makes the case for d4v1d (and imp), yet again. That ice is insane.
Timing is a question here – if Archangel costs them 3c and then costs me 3c for CyCy, I’m generally fine with it. If it snipes a Workshop … I’m less fine I’m curious to see how popular Archangel becomes. It might be one of these cases where Nasir exploits the herd immunity, since neither Prepaid Kate nor Noise Mill really care about it.
agreed, 2 DS tokens and 1 credit for 4tman to break is also not a super tall order. More than that though I think @IirionClaus is right w/r/t benefiting from herd immunity; archangel is a pretty weak include vs. a wide variety of popular runners (it seems; it’s a pretty crazy card so who can say for sure that it won’t find an effective home somewhere…).
haven’t been having mem issues myself. atman-DS-MT plus 2 or 3 open slots (depending on what mem I draw first) is pretty easy to deal with; it also feels nice to install your second and even third memory cards and actually have great programs to fill them up with!
Note that even as a Code Gate, Archangel is a headache for Nasir. You need to have CyCy on the right server, and it’s 3c that you might not have. Also, ignoring the Ambush ability, a 6str, 4c Code Gate is a good investment, so I suspect that the card will see play. Question is whether it’s a 1x or a 2x out of NEH.
If they pop Archangel as an Ambush then you cannot use Datasucker to lower the strength on it, since it’s not rezzed.
Agreed. I’m a bit bummed about spending deck slots on MUs, but it makes your rig much more robust, so it’s worth it. The creds off Multithreader are great.
oof, good catch. my next question would be, if you imp it while encountering it (or before, how does the timing work there?) are you done? or do you have to “finish” the encounter even though the card is now trashed (and thus inactive, if it had been installed?)
Yep, and Fetal AI, and any other Ambush (if you could do it then you could Imp a Project Junebug before it fires). If Archangel is popular than Nasir will have to find a solution for its R&D trigger. Either CyCy and 3x creds, or D4v1d, or empty PW.
Is the excitement about multithreader with Atman just because of recurring credits? Nasir with recurring creds is an old idea. What am I missing about multithreader in particular?
I just am looking at it, and wondering if instead of grabbing more memchips to support getting some MT, that toolbox doesn’t come back into the list. Gives you memory and recurring credits in one personal workshop credit dumping package.
I’ve only ever played Astrolabe, but have felt the memory hungry nature multiple times.
ok guys, cool it! no other ambush opens up a completely separate phase, complete with paid ability windows and it’s own set of established card interactions. I think it was a fair question to ask - if imp could trash an ice being encountered (because it is also simultaneously being accessed) in the same way that parasite can trash an ice in the middle of an encounter. I will assume from here on out that that’s not an option though.
it’s really about the density and tutor/recurability/etc. of the credits. also the ability to use them on programs rather than just ice breakers is attractive, as mid-run SMCs are something Nasir generally has a taste for. In addition, atman has often been difficult to install for nasir as much of its “install cost” needs to paid in a lump sum - MT helps immesely with that.
as compared to toolbox, it mostly comes down to playability. as @IirionClaus as intimated many times recently in this thread, it’s important for Nasir decks not to put too many eggs into the personal workshop basket - and toolbox is extremely difficult to play without the workshop. starting from 0, even assuming you have an armitage in hand to blow on this endeavor, it’s 7 clicks of money before you can install Toolbox out of hand.
multithreader+cybsoft, otoh, can be installed piecemeal as-needed; indeed, the turn-over-turn credit savings of having the 'threader out will make it easier to install the mem chip.
tldr; the 'threader is much easier to get out than toolbox, more memory efficient than cloak, cheaper and better in every way than cyberfeeder, and more versatile than any of them.
BTW it’s entirely possible that we are mistaken. Right now I don’t even think Lukas knows the answer to that question. Looks like Archangel is not a very well thought-out card
Archangel is all the more reason to play Refractor. Then again, Multithreader is good enough to justify CyberSolutions Mem Chip, so maybe I should try some non-Cache/Pawnshop builds.
I hadn’t considered mid-run SMC, very nice. And I totally get not making things even more dependent on workshop. I’ve played a few games when it didn’t show up until late and it’s already difficult enough.
Right, I’m really trying to make the deck less dependent on Workshop. Hence the absence of certain cards: Stimhack, Femme Fatale, The Toolbox. Street Peddler and Earthrise Hotel help.
Just played five games versus anathomical, who was piloting bblum’s NEH. I agree that Imp is a necessity in that matchup, switched the Medium out. The final tally was 1-4 … I don’t see how Nasir can take on NEH. The Pop-up Window shuts Nasir down for a turn, maybe more. There is no time to assemble your rig given Astroscript, and you really need multiple pieces to have a chance (Imp, DS, Workshop). We didn’t even play future cards like Product Placement and Archangel, both of which are great and could shut down Nasir.
Right now I’m pretty pessimistic about Nasir’s chance in Worlds. There is a high chance I’ll move to another Runner.
I’m curious to see how popular Archangel becomes. It might be one of these cases where Nasir exploits the herd immunity, since neither Prepaid Kate nor Noise Mill really care about it.
