Gagarin Appreciation Thread

[kiv]

With Regionals season in full swing, there are lots of shiny plastic Gagarin Deep Space IDs going around. Why leave them in the binder when they're so pretty?

We have a good Kim thread already, so in this topic let's discuss: how to make the best Gagarin deck that probably still sucks, but isn't strictly worse than swapping the ID out for Blue Sun or Titan.

I like to start with the win condition and go from there. Possibilities as I see them are:

1. Vegan Glacier style - get rich, score behind Ash and/or other protection upgrades. Instead of Blue Sun's infinite Adonis and Oversights you do something something asset economy - Breaker Bay Grid + The Root? Eliza's Toybox? Bootcamp for 1x Sundew? Corporate Town to blow up resource economy?

2. Combo Wombo Scorch - Tire them out checking econ assets and DBS, then stick a Posted Bounty or Jackson or Tech Startup (which searches Jackson) and Scorch/Punitive them tracelessly with Accelerated Diagnostics combo.

3. Hard Lock - Power Shutdown / Housekeeping / AggSec / Destroyers to trash their nice things, plus Blacklist/Chronos to deny the recursion and lock them out. Maybe IT Department.

4. Supermodernism style - Quinn's deck pushes agendas under threat of classic SEA+Scorch+Scorch. Not convincing to me in post-IHW meta but has had some success.

Anyone have testing experience to share, or another feasible win condition?

[tomdidiot]

1. Better out of Blue Sun
2. Better out of BABW beause you have more money. Doesn't like IHW Doesn't like Noise. Doesn't like clot. Doesn't like Hades.
3. Better out of Blue Sun.
4. Better out of Blue Sun. (See the Edinbrugh or Manchester Blue Suns for Supermodernism style lists that push agendas hard but also threaten scorches - and, more importantly, have viable scorch plans post-plascrete).

[steve_houston]

The thing about Blue Sun is that your deck slots are kind of locked into the 3 x Curtain Wall and 3 x OAI. I mean, you certainly don't have to do that, but that's where the real money comes from.

I do think there is room to experiment with non Blue Sun IDs. I've had mixed success with Gagarin, but it's definitely been interesting.

Another thing Gagarin has for it is surprise factor. No idea what the deck is going to do.

Crims are at a low point so the Desperado/Sec Test issue is less relevant.

I think murder is what Weyland needs to focus on. They are bad at scoring agendas. After regionals this coming weekend I'm going to start tinkering again.

[x3r0h0ur]

I've been testing this one in casual, so not very thoroughly, but it's basically remote spam with root abuse. I'm essentially getting the root as many ways as possible, rezzing it for 1 credit, and using it to do stuff. While they're fucking with the root, I'm bringing out all the other economy as well, and for each turn the root is up, using it to rez the econ, or advance ice, setting up for big tyrants or orions, then trying to score. This version cut GRNDL refinery, which is one of the finest things to do with root, so I'm putting it back in eventually(the 2 pads maybe?), but at least you can get a flavor for it:

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/22272/subspace-xero-v2

nb4 hedgefund.

[kiv]

Better out of Blue Sun

Just to clarify - are you saying "I tried these builds in Gagarin and they were worse despite trying very hard to refine them and think outside the box", or are you saying "Gagarin looks bad on paper, so I'm going to dismiss it and probably be right".

One of those is more compelling evidence than the other and even so - we might have to settle for what's the least bad win condition.

The thing about Blue Sun is that your deck slots are kind of locked into the 3 x Curtain Wall and 3 x OAI. I mean, you certainly don't have to do that, but that's where the real money comes from.

Recently I've found most Runners prefer to spend $7 with Lady or burn a D4V1D to deny the Oversight so it often just makes the Runner poor rather than you rich.

Reliable money in Blue Sun comes from recurring Adonis, and also from reclamining ICE that are no longer valuable like Hives post-score, or Datapikes post-Yog. Those are both things that Gagarin would have to match or do without.

I'm essentially getting the root as many ways as possible, rezzing it for 1 credit, and using it to do stuff.

Right, I like this as Breaker Bay Grid is one of the few strong economy options that Blue Sun doesn't normally want to play.

Not to mention, @mediohxcore once said that 3/1s were the Memstrips of Corp decks, and look how good Memstrips is these days. So Superior Cyberwalls is clearly great tech.

[x3r0h0ur]

The cyberwalls are mediohxcore hate. I'm yet to test it on his brain.

[kiv]

Make sure to accidentally show Cyberwalls to him while you're shuffling. Then he automatically starts the game with 3 brain damage.

[hypomodern]

Bootcamp => Root plus Paywall Implementations was really pretty good when you could stick it for value. Best case scenario you get some decent-but-not-too-expensive ice in front and paywalls up so your opponent doesn't feel like they can afford to kill it and you go crazy with three recurring a turn. I'd run ToL so you can surprise FA for big value off of advancement tokens paid for by The Root.

Gagarin seems to like a weird "horizontal glacier" style, where checking remotes is uncomfortable for the runner: you can't overcommit to ICE on them since you need to lock up centrals. On the whole, my experimentation ended with a modest success rate: once folks adjusted to the new econ math Gagarin foists on them, or just gone all in on the R&D lock it stopped winning as much as your standard Blue Suns.

But if your opponents don't see Gagarin much, it can definitely grit out a lot of wins. I felt like it hinged on getting The Root to stick.

[x3r0h0ur]

ToL off them superior cyberwalls son. Make money scoring points.

Sorry, POINT, not points.

I think its more of a psychological impact, like RP, that you eventually feel like you should give up remotes having to pay 1 each time, which you might not even be able to leverage, which is why in my deck I make recurring the root so possible. How many times do you really want to spend 5 to trash the fucking thing? 3 interns, jackson back in and tech start up(if it goes off), and natural draws, its such a pain in the ass to deal with as the runner.

[Span_Argoman]

Anyone think Oaktown Grid might be a nice fit for Gagarin? Breaker Bay Grid is nice as conditional econ but Oaktown could possibly go with Red Herrings for defending the remote and R&D.

[hypomodern]

I think its more of a psychological impact, like RP, that you eventually feel like you should give up remotes having to pay 1 each time, which you might not even be able to leverage, which is why in my deck I make recurring the root so possible.

For sure: in the games that I won, this was usually why: although ideally they try to stay with remotes for a little while, letting you build up central defenses so you don't get medium'd out :).

[PeekaySK]

Yes, actually. Will have more to say on the matter once not on my phone.

[kiv]

Anyone think Oaktown Grid might be a nice fit for Gagarin?

It only adds to the trash cost of cards installed in that server, so it would only protect R&D upgrades but not the contents of R&D. It actively weakens R&D as another card with trash cost of $1.

It's pretty strong with Ash since if the trace succeeds, they have to pay $6 to trash Ash. Otherwise they can just access the Oaktown first and trash it for $4, then pay normal price for the rest of the server's contents. I could see a reasonable server with it and The Root in there, or some other annoying card - Sundew? Server Diagnostics?

Eager to hear @Peekaysk's thoughts.

[voltorocks]

Otherwise they can just access the Oaktown first and trash it for $4

not that it necessarily matters much, but gagarin does throw off this math a little bit, as it also costs to access the upgrade. 10 cr to trash both or 8 for just the root, for example... it's a tough call either way, and a whole lot of credits to just to dump an econ asset.

[false_idol]

I think you will have a better time with Breaker Bay Grid in terms of net credits gained. That being said, I can see Oaktown making some really tough choices for the runner, and if they can't afford to trash it AND your other upgrades, then coming back in starts to look pretty bad for the runner.

So to me, Breaker Bay Grid is probably better for econ, while Oaktown pairs better with defensive upgrades

[ericbtool]

Now that regionals are over for me I'm back into experimentation mode and going back and forth between Gagarin or Argus in my head.

cards that jump out to me though are marked accounts and predictive algorithm. My initial impression of it is more of a grinder than speedster. If I head in that direction I won't be as interested in taking something you can accept like trashing a PAD and making it a bit more annoying than I will taking something already annoying and making it oppressive.

[MondoPeregrino]

I've been toying around with a horizontal Gagarin that uses Turtlebacks and Encryption Protocols, but honestly it's just better in NEH.

[whatisthistreachery]

I've played around with some Gagarin builds running 2x Architect, 2x Data Raven, 3x Dedicated Response, and 2x Ash. (+3 Jackson). It typically runs 2x Patch as well for Architect. I find myself really wanting a third Architect but going down to 1 Data Raven seems to defeat the purpose of 3x DRT.

It's a quite combo-y deck but I feel like theres something there. When it got up and running, it was singing. Patched Architect is a nightmare to deal with, and with a bunch of decent asset econ to install and Ash to recur Architect was never bad. Maybe dropping the kill option and going more glaciery. I don't know.

Gagarin is the best for pulling off a 'toolbox' build of 2x Boot Camp, 1x Student Loans, and 1x Corporate Town.

Just shooting ideas off here. I find myself to be very poor in Gagarin unless I run heavy Root play.

There's a Weyland ICE suite I've been toying with... as 3x FIre Wall, 3x Ice Wall, 3x Builder, and 2x Shadow/Searchlight/Nebula (take your pick). I love the idea of Builder, but it had a serious problem - when I relied on it, the Runner saw this and broke it. When I didn't rely on it, well, they gave me 15 counters on my Asteroid Belt. Woop-dee-doo. Ice Wall and Fire Wall don't need discount advancements to function, bluff players trying to focus on breaking builder, and can get quite scary with a couple advancements.

I'd toss in a decklist but I just now got some free time to test some new decks. Our local regionals is the very last (plano TX) so I'll put in some games before I throw a useless list out. Unrelated, I'm pretty salty there's no ANRPC for the true south. It's in the works of being fixed now.

[Vapo]

Hard Lock - Power Shutdown / Housekeeping / AggSec / Destroyers to trash their nice things, plus Blacklist/Chronos to deny the recursion and lock them out. Maybe IT Department.

This sort of deck has been a pet project of mine on and off for 12+ months, but I've come to the conclusion that trying it outside of Blue Sun is just causing yourself massive issues with Parasite for nowhere near enough benefit. At least Core Weyland or GRNDL give you some extra money to play with, but when you're aiming to stop the runner getting in AT ALL then making them pay 1c extra when they do is the most useless ability possible!

[x3r0h0ur]

My feelings on builder too, it gets you 2 counters, then the runner gives up till they can break it, moving it is nice, but yea, sometimes its counters are just irrelevant unless you run all ice that need/want it, then you're too dependant on builder, which might not turn up. Catch-23 situation.