What do you think about Blue Sun Off the Crisium?
In my meta there are a bunch of guys playing it, and by using Kate I always struggle to play against it (their ICE suit is basically all barrier and Tollbooth) if I don’t draw a Datasucker at the beginning (to kill their Spiderweb or Hive).
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Someone mentioned Riddler before, that seems like a card that could be good (albeit with some tweaks, ie 1c per sub, for the remainder of the run ). It is like a troubleshooter and ICE baked into one. This could do some serious work against faust and other AI breakers.
http://www.netrunneronline.com/cards/riddler/
I would also like to see some dangerous face-checking ICE, something you really don’t want to stumble upon without a breaker.
Has anyone tried and do a program-destroying blacklist Weyland recently? Could it be viable now that batty has been released?
I don’t know what you meant, but that’s exactly my point…
I’m pretty sure Off the Grid is on suspended life-time. (I hope wordreference was right about this translation.)
Once Political Operative is out, almost every deck will play one because of Caprice (plus the fact that it’s only 1 influence).
Like Clot was meant to counter fast-ad and ended killing “original” fast-ad deck like Tennin or Titan, Political Operative is another great exemple of cards with unwanted side-effects.
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i was playing something like this, not enough games tho, to make sure im happy with it or not.
Titan Transnational: Investing In Your Future
49 cards
Influence: 17/17
Agenda points: 21
Agenda (11)
2 Global Food Initiative••
3 Hostile Takeover
3 Oaktown Renovation
3 Project Atlas
Asset (5)
3 Jackson Howard•••
2 Mark Yale
ICE (16)
3 Archer
2 Enigma
3 Grim
2 Ice Wall
2 Meru Mati
2 Quandary
2 Spiderweb
Operation (13)
2 Beanstalk Royalties
3 Green Level Clearance•••
3 Hedge Fund
2 Interns
3 Power Shutdown
Upgrade (4)
1 Cyberdex Virus Suite
3 Marcus Batty•••••••••
i guess my point is that i misunderstood your point 
Ok, sorry.
The more I post here, the more I realize that my english writing needs serious improvment. 
A lot of people have done breakdowns of things Weyland do well and then go into details about cards that could help do it better. I think that’s not the right way to go about it myself. After all, it’s not the cards available to Weyland that are the problem for implementing those strategies - we wouldn’t be discussing them as strategies if they didn’t already have the cards to support them.
I think we need to look at the question of why the meta is currently one in which those strategies are possibly underpowered. I think the strongest long running Weyland strategy is rush, so why is rush not as powerful at the moment?
There’s a lot of recursion around so the combo of binary etr ice and trashy sentries is less powerful. If runners had trad rigs the threat of Archer would be much scarier. As it is the most powerful runner strats of the moment can survive losing some programs. Why are runners building these kind of rigs? I think it’s because it’s the most efficient way to get up to speed quickly and you need to get up to speed quick to have a chance against NEH. Also the power of defensive upgrades like Ash and Caprice force multiple runs on servers and currently the best way to deal with that is the limited use breakers saved for strategic moments or recurred as necessary.
If we instead had a meta where runners relied on normal pumpable breakers then cheap etr ice would still be ok to rush behind and Archer would still be a threat. Cards like Political Operative and Councilman might push things in that direction by giving runners answers to Caprice and Ash beyond just being able to run twice.
Ironically I actually think the rise of Foodcoats is going to help Weyland. Runners now need to deal with multiple str 4 plus sentries, have durable econ to trash stuff late into the game not just smash SanSans early, and need to get a load of R&D accesses through big ice as there are fewer points available for them than for the corp. To me this promotes big rigs and R&DI. Rush Weyland says yes please.
The problem is the power of fast advance. I think there was a window post Clot where Weyland had a real place in the meta. Rush is seriously good against Anarch and Anarch was viable again as you could afford to be slower against RP. Now things have stabilised for fast advance and it can sure as hell survive Clot. If more fast advance hate gets published I would expect the swing back to glacier to be even stronger, which would benefit Weyland rush.
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[quote=“gh0st_b1rd, post:154, topic:5699, full:true”]
Who here went into Worlds expecting DLR Val and HB Foodcoats after the release of D&D? [/quote]
Quite a lot of us actually. I took those decks, but with a highly modified Val so people would think it was the full DLR version while being more Account Siphon spam. Perhaps people thought NEH/Harp was going to be more prevalent but HB Food was always in the Top 3 choices of deck. All the Americans were talking about HB Food in the days leading up to Worlds and the internet was ablaze with Val DLR. When’s the last time anyone got that excited about a Weyland deck?
I have a different definition of a tier 1 deck I think. If it could reliably make Top 16 at Worlds then it would be up there or there abouts. Whether Weyland was under-represented or not is a side issue. The quality of the deck has nothing to do with how many people played it. Conversely if Weyland decks were demonstrably tier one, they’d have had a better showing.
There’s not that much in D&D that’s good for Weyland, compared to all the other factions (notably yellow, but Assassin that could be good for Weyland works well in HB for example).
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Haven’t read the thread completely, but I wanted to reply to Danwarr’s point of each BP amounting up to 4 recurring credits to the runner.
Cybercrime Awareness Bulletin Current: Remove 1 Bad Publicity for each additional run the runner makes on his turn after the first run.
Obviously, details can be fiddled with, but having more ways to remove BP than Lizzie and Witness Tampering wouldn’t hurt for Weyland. I agree that another 3/2 isn’t the solution I’d like to see for Weyland, unless it’s a one-of. But having more 2/1s or even 2/0 available as Archer fodder wouldn’t hurt either. Alternatively, or additionally, since Weyland doesn’t have the agendas to force runners to run on unadvanced cards, more powerful assets with ‘start of turn’ effects like Corporate Town could be an alternative.
Jinteki FA has 5 3/2s and one 2/2 to work with. All but Philotic are blank, though, that’s one of the reasons why Jinteki FA doesn’t hold a candle to NBN and HB.
It’s pretty clear that BABW is a rush identity when you compare it to EtF. The only advantage it has is that with enough transactions in your deck, it can get its bonus credit more than once per turn. I’m doutful if there’s any new transactions that can rescue BABW from it’s defunct status. Corp economy has just gotten so powerful, and it’s hard to imagine a transaction that can match Breaker Bay Adonis and Eve for sheer credits per card slot. Playing 12 econ operations (Beanstalk, Hedge, Green Level, Restructure) already limits your deck space quite a bit. The best I can imagine is a transaction that shuffles itself back into R&D after you play it. 2 credits normally, 3 credits for BABW? Subliminal Mesaging already set a precedent for self-recurring ops econ.
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why weyland rush decks are dismissed as bad? i found them really entertaining and powerful in proper meta. maybe it’s just niche playstyle that majority dont like?
is there any thread about weyland rush decks? i’d have at least two examples of really good decks to post.
Entertaining, sadly, doesn’t equate to tier one.
The sorts of players who aim to win Worlds, Nationals etc do not discriminate based on a deck’s playstyle. If the deck was good enough to win Worlds we’d have seen it top 16.
Certainly, 3/2s are not a solution and do not make a faction good. RP does not play any copies of Braintrust, Philotic or Medical Breakthrough.
In regards to BP:
Bad Pub removal is not a very good direction for card design. Even though the options at the moment are abysmal, the decks that want to run bad pub want to be fast to the point where the bad pub downside doesn’t matter nearly as much as the upside. Durdling around with removing the bad pub is completely the wrong direction for the plan of decks that take BP.
If the Level Clearances were inf free, they’d certainly be a very good start. Something along the same lines would be great. They should have printed Subliminal as a Transaction.
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i know what you are doing here. unfortunately it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that i hear being repeated over and over. how u can say there is no tier 1 deck if there is even no thread for it where people explore different builds? for me it’s the same as with IG being not competitive enough (noone sees that at tournaments, but im 100% sure @Zeromus won’t agree with that). i may be biased as i won nationals with argus (72 players), but there is for sure more players that can see potential in argus or titan. am i that wrong?
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Every deck that is now tier one was once a completely new brew that somebody decided to play and thought was good. The decks that are good are noticed by other competitive players, the decks that aren’t good are not. If someone finds a strong deck, it will be noticed and played by others, and this has been proven by literally every currently tier one deck.
There may be players that can ‘see potential’ in Argus and Titan, but certainly, the strongest players will not consider Argus or TItan decks stronger positioned than HB, NEH or RP is at the moment. If a deck was good, it’d rise to the top, just like every other tier one deck has done. Sadly, not all decks are created equal and not all IDs can be tier one (else the meaning of the phrase ‘tier one’ would be moot).
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I agree in general that there is no currently known world beating deck in a Weyland ID but to suggest that means those IDs can’t be as good just as a matter of fact is a bit Panglossian. All is for the best in this best possible of metas.
It seems like you’re saying: “If a good Weyland deck existed someone would be playing it. As they aren’t we know no good Weyland deck exists.” I really think we shouldn’t be quite so confident in our ability to exhaust the card pool and it’s possibilities.
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on top what @Ortho said, there is also a lot of psychology going on.
lazy player: ‘no one won with niche id, so why bother and try as i can copy other winning deck?’
‘i wanna win’ player: ‘he has won with good id, its awesome, so ill take good id as well’
suspecting player: ‘hmm, dude won with niche id, he was probably lucky or tournament was small, its not tier 1, AS EVERYONE SAYS SO, so id better play my good id’
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I don’t think it’s over confident in the slightest to say there’s no good Tier 1 Weyland deck lurking in the shadows.
If you don’t even agree with the lack of any good tournament results, consider the following.
There are three plausible ways for Corporations to win. Flatline, scoring from hand, and scoring from remotes.
Weyland’s flatline tool is Scorched Earth, and the potential is far inferior to NBN. If you disagree, I’d be fascinated to hear the reasoning. NBN agendas put more pressure on the runner (mainly Astroscript) to run unprepared; they have better tag potential (ice, operations, agendas, upgrades) and they have better ids for it (card draw).
Weyland’s ability to fast advance isn’t worth considering.
Weyland’s ability to score from a remote is primarily based on rush. You can try glacier - Bootcamp Glacier is as far as anyone has got - but it lacks the in faction pressure tools (Ash, Caprice, Sundew, Adonis, Eve) to make a runner over extend. It also lacks taxing ice - the ice is generally overcosted for the amount it costs to break. So we return to rush, which is what everyone favours. But it’s pretty clear rush is in a terrible place right now. SMC and Faust (and arguably the large amounts of recursion) are crippling to such a deck. and such a tactic requires a high ice count that removes opportunities for other tricks.
So let me summarise: Weyland’s strategies for winning are all inferior to known decks in other factions, and obviously so. Given those decks are still pretty vulnerable to a good runner deck, it’s hardly a stretch to suggest Weyland is not going to be able to give such runner decks a decent run for their money.
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i cannot disagree more. how many games u played with such decks?
weyland just got spider web. great vs faust, especially if archer is the next ice, or wraparound. oaktown renovation improved rush by a lot by giving them a way to score without loosing tempo. add some fastracks and free atlas tokens from titan and u got proper rush deck.
there are two rushes available (at least im testing two versions). first is batty based destroyer one. 2nd is argus based with scorch backup kill (that one indeed have a some problems right now, as with d&d a lot of killing nbn appeared and everyone meta for them, there was a time window tho, when it was winning me a lot).
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This is 100% wrong and i cannot believe I am reading this on Stimhack. I think we all agree that decklist is not the be-all-end-all in ANR. Pilot skill and RNG are both huge factors and because of this, representation does need to be considered at the highest level of play. IIRC only 2 NEH made it to Top 16. By your logic NEH could have ended up as being ‘not good’ by missing Top 16. That of course is a laughable claim. It is also ignorant to assert that because no Weyland list made the cut, no ‘good’ Weyland list or archetype exists right now. I’ll end my rant there. Representation does matter and writing off builds, IDs, and entire factions based on lack of placement is ignorant and reductive.
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Not at all, using the logic that I posted: If NEH didn’t make top 16 at Worlds then it wouldn’t have been good enough to win Worlds.
I don’t think there’s any flaw in that logic. If a deck can’t make top 16, how does it expect to win?
It’s far more evidence than “well I think that Weyland’s good, so there”.
You’re right in that representation at big tournaments matters, and there’s a very big reason we saw little representation of Weyland in the top cut. Of course, RNG and whatnot matter, as you say, it could very well be that every single Weyland player at Worlds got a horrible draw every single game. We both know that’s extremely unlikely and after a long tournament like Netrunner’s, that sort of RNG tends to even out. I’m not basing any argument off the results of a 3 round Swiss tournament full of subpar players or something.
You can sit around and pretend Weyland is a top tier faction if you want, but that’s not going to change the fact that Weyland is the worst Corp faction at the moment. It doesn’t change anything or contribute to any sort of intelligent discussion to pretend that every faction is tier one (thereby nullifying the meaning of the phrase) or that every faction is equal. If we’re going to ignore the results of Worlds and other big tournaments and base our arguments on how good individual people ‘feel’ a faction is, what’s the point of discussion?
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Unfortunately, we are getting away from the true discussion on how to improve Weyland to disagreeing about whether they need the help. I believe that with Pilot skill and significant play testing a player can take a Weyland deck and win a large tournament as @aandries was able to accomplish this spring but even he admitted in this thread that they are behind the curve. I think that they are on their way up though with Corp Town and Public support giving them new tools so lets hope that continues in the upcoming cycle.
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