Nobody talked about Blue Sun yet, IMO the best ID in the game (with the worst cardpool). They should definitely have the lowest influence of all Weyland id’s
NEXT Design definitely needs to get a bump in influence. I’d be happy with 15, over the moon with 17. Turns out, starting the game with up to 3 ice installed isn’t a massive benefit because EtF is just so much stronger with their 1 credit a turn.
GRNDL - at least a 12 if not a 15.
Kit - up to 12. I think 15 would make her too broken (and I think Nero is a bit overpowered with 15 but that’s just in preliminary testing), but at 10 she feels just a little weak.
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I’d agree with you except for the fact that Weyland has to import basically everything to make it remotely playable, even Blue Sun. Maybe they should have the lowest influence, but really that probably means that they should have 15 and every other Weyland ID should be higher.
My main corp atm is a Blue Sun rush deck, it’s doing really good so don’t underestimate Weyland (or Blue Sun at least)
But you’re right, 15 inf is fine now, but I’m already dreaming of the future (with some better Weyland ice)…
I’ve been having solid luck with my Titan Rush but this weekend will be my first time to play it against a group beyond just my normal play partner and randos on Jinteki. I also really wish Weyland had some better ICE.
Less:
NEH
More:
Next Design
Kit
Exile/Nasir (unplayable due to MWL)
Professor (though with MWL he would just lose it anyway)
Iain
TWIY
Medtech
Really I could put every single Weyland ID as well but influence isn’t going to fix their problems as opposed to just (finally) printing good Weyland cards.
The thing is, that’s the Kit deck I want to play. Right now it’s 2 Siphon and a planned assault.
I think Kit is on the cusp of being fair at 10. 12 may be okay; I think 15 would make her the new Kate, while PPVP remains on MWL.
15 might be too much, but I think 12 is pretty safe and should be the bare minimum, especially with MWL hitting Kit up for Lady (huge) and any Clone Chips (optional but good to have).
That’s fair. I’ve been tinkering with a Kit list at 8 influence and it feels fine. Then again, I’m now accustomed to playing below 10 in Anarch, too. Right now in Kit I like Stimhack, Clot, Clone Chip, HQ Interface, Scrubber, Lady, Mimic. Scavenge is the new Clone Chip, and very reasonable for Kit if you’re on Cyphers.
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Whilst Exile is initially savaged by the MWL I do think it will be a good thing for him. The design space has been cleared to make more recursion cards.
Still, he was bad pre-MWL and could probably do with some influence if we’re assuming Kate deserves 15.
You cannot say that statement about CI and Nasir. CI has had times where it has been tier one, and you cannot put those decks in ETF! Of course, you didn’t make this sentence to ‘all’ deliberately, but I think this point is exactly the problem with the factions. It’s not that ETF is too strong, it’s that all of the other IDs can be replaced with it.
This isn’t necessarily a problem with Kate/ETF, it’s a problem with FFG printing so many, very similar IDs. All IDs that try and make your deck or its efficiency ‘better’ instead of generating a unique effect that you can build around. Looking at HB’s ID pool, the only two that have any merits over ETF are CI and CD. Is it really any surprise that we’ve not seen a tonne of diversity, and more to the point, is it really ETF’s fault? If every HB ID printed was a 45/15 blank ID, we wouldn’t blame ETF for lack of faction diversity, we’d blame the underpowered IDs with very clearly less efficient decks.
The problem isn’t that Kate/ETF are too good (they are extremely good, don’t get me wrong), it’s that FFG haven’t printed many strong IDs with effects that are irreplaceable. It seems weird that we’re still getting IDs like Hayley and The Foundry.
FFG are pretty conservative in ID design for Shaper and HB (and other factions with criminally low influence), but hopefully the MWL can give some confidence to print IDs with really strong effects that don’t challenge ETF and Kate, but that are different to ETF and Kate. With IDs like Noise and Whizzard, even NEH vs Haarp, they don’t challenge each other, and though one’s obviously always going to be stronger in a given meta than the other, that’s not quite the same as ETF vs ST where it’s basically impossible for both to exist as tier one decks at once. These esoteric IDs need a massive upside to be good, though, they need a very strong ability and a decent pool of influence, and you can note that this is the case for the notable ones.
There have been a lot of mistakes in the past, hopefully they don’t errata to try and ‘fix’ it (this would be awful for Shaper and HB and would not create diversity due to aforementioned reasons). I’m a fan of being confident with card design though, and one benefit of the MWL is that FFG can take a few more risks with card strength. My guess is the conservation in the past with ID influence in these two factions is because they thought they might be too good or something, but it has improved a bit, (there have been some great examples, and some not as good ones, like the aforementioned Foundry and Hayley), and even the ones they print now that aren’t quite there are better than the ones in the past (even if they lack a direction).
I think we’d all rather risk something be put on the MWL than have a Data Pack of 60 Record Reconstructors.
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To be fair, TWIY* and GRNDL were tier 1 for some time after their respective releases - the meta has moved on since then and those IDs are no longer really competitive, but the concept of reduced influence IDs has been shown to work, at least for previous metas.
Instead of cutting their influence, how about making Kate and ETF (and maybe Andy) 50/15. That way you can play them as before, but they’re a little slower and less consistent. Can probably take PPVP off MWL at this point as well.
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Hmm, this topic does enjoy resurfacing, doesn’t it? A thread recently showed up on r/netrunner which centred around how one would hypothetically rebalance (buff) the C&C IDs. I gave a couple of responses there, but they’re largely still relevant here. Posted below:
I have thought about this exact same thing many, many times. The fact that the big boxes are not going to cycle out all the more makes me wish that these IDs were all revisited. Also:
So, what if we errataed these IDs to give them a power boost? Unlike an errata nerf, a power-up errata is always a nice surprise for people to find out. If FFG did this, they could release updated card images as a download, which would be easy to print and play with since IDs are not included in decks.
I know that not everyone would be happy with a solution like this (“ugly”, “awkward”, “but I hate sleeves”), but I would be fuznucking ecstatic if the balance of IDs were being so heavily prioritized that it even took precedence over the ‘appearance’ of a perfect product. That’s just me though.
Before I even address these IDs though, I feel it’s necessary to address the elephants in the room (yep, there are two of them). The major reason why the C&C IDs are so ‘below the curve’ is because each faction has a rather pronounced spike in power level right at the top. HB and Shaper each have an ID that stands head and shoulders above all their other in-faction competitors - namely, Engineering the Future and Kate “Mac” (tehehe) McCaffrey. While this thread is centred around buffing the betrodden (a philosophy dear to my heart), sometimes you need to dethrone the ruling class in order to establish true balance. Even if Kate and ETF were to be nerfed, the C&C IDs could still afford to be buffed without fear that they would ‘overtake’ the previous giants.
Honestly, I really don’t know how exactly I would nerf these two (reduced influence; make EtF only work for installs in servers or protecting servers, not both; make Kate’s ability only work for hardware, etc) but I would see fit to do so. Also, even though it isn’t directly relevant to the discussion - snap drop Near-Earth Hub to 15 influence (or less). It would easily survive the nerf.
All that being said, for a number of the C&C IDs, the best solutions are probably the simplest ones (and sadly, the most boring). Buff Kit’s influence up to 12 (just a couple of extra influence would be a huge deal for her) and NEXT Design up to 17 (same logic as OP). Pretty simple.
Regarding Exile, I think his problems have already been summed up to death, but primarily I think his weakness lies in the lack of card support for his ability. Personally, my preferred solution would be simply adding more cards that trigger his ability, alongside an influence bump (up to, say, an arbitrary 17). There has been so little in the way of program heap recursion - for obvious reasons, what with Clone Chip being so good - which has ensured that Exile has never been able to excel. We need some program recursion ‘for the sake of recursion’ - programs that do little besides recur themselves, solely to trigger Exile (yes, he’s so neglected at this point that he absolutely needs dedicated support cards), in a similar fashion to Cache for Noise. Like what Harbinger should have been. Yeah, I’m salty. More on this in another post.
The Professor is actually fairly difficult to buff now - in the past, I would have immediately just said “increase his influence to, say, 5”, but with the arrival of the NAPD Most Wanted List, that change wouldn’t really achieve very much (and would undo his present buff). I like your idea, but I would probably restrict the card to a program (seems appropriate). I.e. added text after his “first copy of program = no influence” clause:
Before your first turn, search your stack for a program and add it to your grip.
I don’t know what to do about Custom Biotics - at present, I really hate that ID. Its ability is solely related to deckbuilding, but it isn’t interesting. I readily admit that I am biased though (don’t hate me please). Maybe… 28 influence? It just feels so uninspired. With that much more influence than any other ID though, perhaps something truly impressive could be achieved with out-of-faction cards?
Anyhow, I agree about keeping Cerebral Imaging as is, particularly if EtF were to be nerfed.
As a TL;DR to my previous opus of a post, here’s just the changes I would implement:
NERFS
-
Engineering the Future → “The first time you install a card in a server each turn, gain 1credit.”
-
Kate → “Lower the install cost of the first piece of hardware you install each turn by 1.” [no longer works for programs]
-
Near-Earth Hub → Influence lowered to 15.
BUFFS
-
Kit → Influence increased to 12.
-
Exile → Influence increased to 17. [Print new dedicated support
cards to trigger his ability] -
The Professor → Added text “Before your first turn, search your stack for a program and add it to your grip.”
-
NEXT Design → Influence increased to 17.
-
Custom Biotics → Influence increased to 28.
Oh, and regarding Harbinger.
Here’s a letter I sent to Lukas requesting that Harbinger receive functional errata to combo with Exile: Letter to Lukas: Exile says pls - Google Docs.
I really, really do want that poor, mopey dude to get some love.
Would this work though? Its not a program when its installed even if it does visit the heap. I think both Exile and Apex would have been much more solid if Harbinger had the ability ‘You may install Harbinger from the heap’
I agree, HB has so very few interesting ID’s to work with it’s hard to blame ETF for the lack of diversity.
I still think both identities are a bit too ubiquitously strong in the sense that they don’t really need special consideration in how to build them. Val want to use bad pub, Noise wants viruses, Gabe wants more HQ pressure, Kit wants a good decoder for early pressure, CD wants to hit people with brain damage and reduce hand size, RP wants centrals to be awful to run, Haarp wants to race you in agendas (and then kill you), etc.
Kate and ETF don’t need to build in a special way way to turn on their ID; they just do what they should be doing (installing cards) and their ID give them money. I think they make greater starter ID’s for new players because it get’s them doing things they’re supposed to, but in competitive play they’re a bit too far ahead of most other ID’s in general.
I just want to clarify that this was more a matter of musing. I think it’s far too early to ban ID’s in competitive play, particularly when there are new cards coming out (I’m very interested in Panchatantra for Kit).
Thanks for giving your thoughts in such detail!
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Though I understand what you mean, I think it’s perfectly okay for IDs to have very situation-unspecific abilities (as long as there’re only about one or two per faction). Andromeda is really strong, but Leela and Gabe (and Geist, arguably) aren’t miles below her by any stretch of the imagination, and I personally feel like Leela is the strongest post MWL. Likewise, Whizzard isn’t particularly build-around (don’t include Scrubbers I guess), and though NEH arguably has a stronger ability than ETF (and two more influence), that doesn’t stop Haarp, Sync, and even some Spark decks popping up.
It can be fine to have strong, generic ids as long as there are similarly strong IDs that don’t try and ‘compete’ in the same area.
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What if Kate/EtF were errata’d to read “the second time you [x] each turn”? It’s a huge nerf, but it also feels much more in line with encouraging certain kinds of builds, akin to other IDs, instead of always awesomely exactly the kind of benefit that’s going to help you win.
I like that. But maybe it should be reduce by two for Kate. Haas is fine the way you have it.