[Jinteki RP] Perfecting Perfection: The Best Deck Ever

The advantage of thinking before your mandatory draw is that you don’t give a tell about what your mandatory draw was. The last thing you want to do is have this be your play style:

  • Top card isn’t an agenda? Casually install Adonis Campaign or whatever and play your turn in five seconds.
  • Top card is an agenda? Frown, flicker your eyes over the scoring remote and the Runner’s icebreakers and credit total, possibly ask to see their heap, then go into the tank and spend 60 seconds thinking about whether you have a scoring window.
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True. Then again, you have the entirety of the runner’s turn to do your thinking.

(and sometimes actually know the answer before doing your mandatory draw, runner RnD accesses and whatnot)

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Spending the opponent’s turn deciding what your turn will be is a really good way to learn to play faster. Sure if they do something very significant your actions will change, but usually what they do won’t have a huge effect on your best line of play, especially if you’re playing runner and have been planning ahead.

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But what if they put a clone chip down on their last click then passed the turn. You’ll need at least 5 minutes to figure out how that changes your scoring window.

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When it isn’t my turn, my cards are on the table. The amount of out of turn decisions in this game is very minimal. I’m reading my opponent, i’m reading the board state, and I’m thinking about my next turn. If not much changes on my opponent’s Side, my turn is pretty well laid out ahead of time.

@aandries and I tested for around seven hours last night. I bet we got at least 25 games in. Granted, we are as comfortable playing each other as an old married couple is playing cribbage. I feel that if you don’t know how your deck is going to handle a specific situation from a specific opponent, you are probably already losing.

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My dad is highly unpredictable. This is probably why I never win.

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If my dad played Netrunner, there would be more dead people in the world.

Ah, what a great AutoCorrect.

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Shut this thread down for the day, nothing more needs to be done here! Great dad.

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Egotistical and Unsportsmanlike, your kidding me right ? I believe that the rules state we need to play at a pace to finish the match. Its unsportsmanlike to take way more time in a match then I do and to play in a way that is not going to finish the match. If the game is moving slowly, then you need to speed up. Like people should not still be in game 1 50 minutes into a round…

Of course you can take a small amount of time if the board state is tough and the clock permits, I’m not against people thinking. But you can’t take a significant amount of time, especially every single turn. When you do that, you are eating the clock for both players.

Playing faster decks? I play all my decks at a very swift pace. Runner and Corp. Like I said I very rarely go to time. How is that my responsibility when i play both my runner and corp very fast compared to others. I practice with my decks, and I know what to do in common situations when they come up in tournaments. And I execute my game plan… I don’t tank for 2 minutes every time a corp player has a crazy board state because then I would go to time and neither of us are happy.

For example… I was in a game in a store championship with 5-6 minutes left and I’m runner up 6-0. I can just slowroll this, my opponent can’t win, but I actually sped up my play extremely and just started running and crap so that I can finish the match within time. I hit a snare and died. Is this not fair? Was I not following the rules? Please enlighten me on my unsportsmanlike behavior.

Again, My goal in Netrunner is to give my opponents tough decisions as corp side and runner side… My goal is NOT to do this and cut you short from thinking if that was the impression you got, UNLESS your taking an unreasonable amount of time to think(especially every single turn), than I am going to ask you to speed up. If you don’t speed up, I will call a judge over and explain the situation and have them observe(I’ve only had to do this once in my whole time playing)(but I often have to ask players to speed up and make a decision once or so)

If you think that RP/Blue Sun/etc are too slow to be played competitively by someone like me that has only gone to time maybe 4-5 times(in person) since I started playing this game then umm I think you need to write to FFG about some time extensions or something? I am a quick enough player to play 2 games of glacier with someone who is a reasonable paced player. The only people who I continually ask to speed up and have problems with are players that go to time consistently in the tournaments I play in(you shouldn’t have a match go to time once a tournament imo)

Please though, enlighten to me on how I’m unsportsmanlike and egotistical.??? I’d really love to be enlightened.

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The only problem I’ve ever had with slow play was at the Regionals I won during the weekend. My MaxX opponent took 4 minutes for one turn and spent 1 minute thinking pre-click 1 during the next.

We still finished both our games without going to time. I’ve never gone to time with/against RP.

I am going into an extensive testing phase. Thinking about removing 2x ELP - what to add with the influence?

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I remember watching the Team Covenant stream, and I remember seeing a lot of the RP games go to time. There was one round where there was RP on either side for the corps, and the first round took forever and a day, because both players were taking too long on their turns. On the second game, they realized they were under a huge time crunch (and the game did eventually go to time, because of the first game), so they played much, much faster. In the faster game, they made decisions faster, and they were still good decisions. The same thing could have happened on the first game, which would have kept the second game from going to time.

The thing is, when people are reminded that they’re on a schedule, they almost always play faster. They weren’t thinking about it the first game. They were the second. By the same property, I don’t be offended if my opponent reminds me about how much time is left; he just wants to get both games in. The reason I’m not offended is because I do too. If he’s playing a slower deck on corp side, but is taking quick turns, it’s on me to play faster. As I said, I want to get both full games in too. It’s no good for me if I take a loss and a timed win when I could have taken a loss and a win. Obviously I want to win both games, but I can still do that while playing at an okay pace.

I especially think that people in a regional (which is really what we’re taking about here, since this thread cropped up at regional time) should be prepared to face a deck as ubiquitously present as RP is right now. Everyone and their dog has an RP deck, because it’s strong. So, as a responsible runner knowing you’re going to be playing against RP all day e’ry day, you need to learn how to play at a reasonable pace against it; that’s just part of playing Netrunner at a competitive level. The game is going to have more turns than the “average” game, so they can’t take 2 mins a piece. As a runner, if you don’t do this, you have less than no right to complain when someone reminds you that time is a thing in this world that needs to be paid attention to. It’s regionals, for god’s sake. Taking 2 mins a turn isn’t playing at a competitive level.

As far as ego and sportsmanship goes, I’d say the opposite applies. Not being prepared for a competitive tournament by not being prepared to play against the most popular deck archetype out there corp-side, and instead expecting to take turns as long as you want because you can’t come to decisions fast enough against, again, the most popular deck out there, at a regional competition and in a situation where it benefits you to take faster turns… I’d argue that’s egotistical and unsportsmanlike in the extreme.

Anyhow, this thread got pretty off topic. Let’s get back to talking about Dan’s dad.

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Man did that come out wrong - I didn’t intend to imply you specifically as a person being that, and I’m sorry it ended up sounding that way. In fact, the paragraph was originally written with “player A” and “player B”, but it seemed completely unintelligible to me on proof-reading, so I changed it to “you” and “me”.

So: sorry for implying you’re that and the other thing, here comes attempt #2 at formulating my point:

It is naturally both players’ responsibility to try to finish the match in time. I simply believe that if one of them makes a conscious deck building/selection that causes the match to actually require more time to finish, it does not cause an obligation for the other player to speed up his portion of that particular match to compensate. If I take a slow corp deck, it’s my responsibility to take a fast runner deck and/or play fast as the runner, not yours.

That’s great, but (part of) what I’m saying is that the capacity to create board states requiring ample evaluation on the runner’s part is an attribute of a corp deck. A particular deck may or may not have it, and the amount of time available for the runner’s decisions should not be contingent on that, as it’s not something under the runner’s control.

You played it sportsmanlike, but in my opinion you went above and beyond what the rules require you to do. Unless “playing at your own pace” is excruciatingly slow, you should be at liberty to play at your own pace, no matter the amount of time left on the clock.

Slowrolling intentionally is a separate topic - the way I see it, if you slow-roll you’re basically lowering the payoff of victory in the match intentionally (1 prestige instead of 2). In some cases you’re also increasing your chances of getting the payoff (being 6-0), in other cases you’re increasing the variance of the result (being 4-2 with 3-pointers in the deck). I don’t actually have a fully formed opinion on whether this should be legal or not, but to me it seems at least similar to intentional splitting, as far as problematic topics go.

[quote=“bluebird503, post:152, topic:3704”]
If you think that RP/Blue Sun/etc are too slow to be played competitively by someone like me that has only gone to time maybe 4-5 times(in person) since I started playing this game then umm I think you need to write to FFG about some time extensions or something? [/quote]

The current tournament rules say 65 +/- 10 minutes for a round. The base is fine, shit just gets complicated with the “minus” part of that particular paragraph.

65 minutes is good, 60 is cutting it close, 55 is too little and has significant impact on the viability of several decktypes / archetypes. The tournament rules should allow for longer rounds, but not shorter (as they do now).

Cutting rounds to 55 minutes is inexcusable in my opinion - if you’re running into time issues from an organizational standpoint, either play more rounds of swiss and cut the double elim part of the tournament, or make it a 2-day event. There’s the potential argument about competitive/premier level events requiring a higher level of proficiency of the attendees (and thus technically needing less time per round), but it’s still kinda fishy, with the setup time of match 2 being part of this time.

I’m in the same boat re: 2 glacier games, but then again I suspect we’re both in the top 10-15% of player speed, globally. Some people just play slower and more deliberate. However, there’s a difference between “slower than me” and “too slow”, which I recognize and do not blame players of the first (but not second) category if we go to time.

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Damn, RP is harder to play against than I thought… Now I have to consider my opponents feelings and opinion of me? :expressionless:

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While it might not be unsportsmanlike of someone to take the same amount of time playing regardless of what their opponent brings, it’s kind of dumb. If you expect the round could likely go to time, it’s simply in everyone’s best interest for you to play faster. For this reason, I don’t think there’s any problem with asking someone to hurry up. It’s not like they have to listen.

Slowrolling should absolutely be illegal. There are a lot of times when someone is overwhelmingly likely to lose a game that they’re up on points in. Taking forever would become a dominant strategy for players in those situations if it were allowed, and that isn’t ok.

I took a whole lot of shit for rushing Minh in the winners final of Worlds. It was such a shitty situation; while I do believe he was playing “too slow” (not just slower than me), he ended up speeding up and making a costly mistake before I won on my timed turn. FFG extended elimination round time, thank god, so this will come up less. I think 65 minutes for elimination rounds is plenty as long as both players realize from the get go that they should be playing at least somewhat swiftly. I would bitch out any TO who ran a tournament with less round time than that.

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Tight Dad, Playa.

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I’m not sure that I did

“Players must maintain a pace to
allow the match to be finished within the announced time limit.”

If the game doesn’t finish with an agenda score of 7-x, flatline, or corp getting decked, I don’t think we finished the match within the allotted amount of time. If i simply don’t run, I can’t finish the match within the time limit, so I would be cheating.?

I sort of agree, if the match looks like its going to time, even if there is 30 minutes left, its time to speed up, on both sides. Even if the person is not comfortable at playing at that pace, they need to play at a pace to finish the match.(at least that is my interpretation of the rules)

Thanks for restating what you meant, I’m sorry if I took a little too much offense too it. To be fair, had you said that to me in my MTG days you would have been absolutely correct :).

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So, this may have been discussed upthread, but what is the tech vs RP? I expect to see a lot of it in the coming Regionals season, so I’d like to know everyone’s thoughts on what the best stack of cards to beat it is.

Vamp/Siphon seem like winners to deal with Ash and the Psi games. What about HQI or Legwork? Is pressuring HQ even worth it? Indexing, RDI, and Maker’s all seem good.

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Ice kill works well too

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HQ Interface is probably better than Legwork against RP, as it lets you repeatedly access TFPs in HQ. Also, you might get many chances to run HQ because of the length of the game and using a Nisei Token to stop a Legwork might be legitimate in some games.

HQ gets really good in a lot of RP games.
R&D is rubbish until they Jackson. Only check if it’s cheap or you see a bunch of cards. Preferably both.
RP almost never have infinite money - asset econ must die.
Parasite still really stings.
Vamp/siphon/econ wars are useful.
Win psi games.

I think Reg MaxX is probably best suited to winning vs RP of the hive mind’s top 4 (Kate, Leela, Andy, MaxX)