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Levy-less MaxX, and luck/skill/variance discussion

I’ll fix everything. Yo, @Cthulhu. Come clean up this mess.

Let’s make a little poll before I’m banned again for whatever “speaking too much engrish” reason.

Who played that kind of deck, who never did ?

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MFW I clicked a thread about an interesting idea, and got 10 minutes of solid enjoyment instead.

I hate diluting my influence though. I tried the 59 card corp thing for a while, and stopped. I cant imagine pulling a Long Voyage on a runner deck would make me appreciate the idea any more.

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Levyless MaxX = Netrunner: The Long Voyage

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You know your posts for the most part are fine and contribute to a certain side of the argument. I understand English is not your first language and sometimes it takes some work to interpret however it’s not all that hard.

However!! Every time you put math equations into your post or try and support your argument with numbers any attempt to try and interpret is thrown out the window. Continue to post and argue your point, just do it with concepts/ideas/pros/cons and try to avoid the math (even though you seem to be proficient at it, it just doesn’t translate well on paper)

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@Xavi I’d ok with you, “but”. Will “stop it”, then.

The problem is if people does things by instinct with that particular runner, they can be wrong. Look at these 30% of game where you used 4inf for nothing.

By default, people (and me) invalidate the tower approach. The problem is she is something.
Tell me, who can do a ratio of ±66% with a Kate/Andromeda/whoever non Maxx tower deck, me or a top player ? Even 50% ? Even 30%? Surely not me.

So there is something there. By math, and by experience.

In that situation, I’m surely not talented enough to explore alone there.

I was very happy someone remarked that same mechanism. That’s the primary sense of the LOTR quote I put, if you guys thoughed it was Cthulhesque or something, that’s funny and fine too. :slight_smile:
I think Calimsha knew or guessed that, that’s why he @ me (we are both very vocal on r4g, to say the least).

I’m not talented enough to win something to prove (if you ever knew who is in my store, it’s frightening : I have maybe 6-7 regulars of the top 16 of France nationals).
That is only it. Show Andro/NEH or nothing.
I never fielded her, I was searching to build something strong with the corp - stupid builder pride, there, won’t use a known thing. Anything I build with EtF/NEH is strong these days (I’m a mono-Jinteki player usually, from C&C), so I might come with these at a next store, maybe I’ll be near the middle or something. You just don’t know the players there.

Yesterday, I played a game with @thiamine, with 3 Larla / 1 sot with Maxx, very different deck (wyldside / chronotype).
Nothing showed. 9 inf for nothing. That was very unfun. Previous game vs Hayley was one of the best matches I have ever played for long though. I could not imagine Hayley was “this”.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-is-playing-more-than-60-cards-always-a-bad-idea/

A good read for everyone playing a “more than 45 cards” deck. Including @Calimsha 46 cards signature decks.

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I think everyone here already read this article but this doesn’t entirely stand in Netrunner. Thing is, if you draw a “bad” card in MTG, in worst case scenario you can lose an entire turn doing nothing. Here at Netrunner, you would at best lose a click. The tempo hit isn’t nearly the same.

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Even then, author forgot thee most important reason to play an oversized deck : winning with it and publish the list, for everyone to necro al those old posts about deck size and why it matters.

bonus points if the extra card is something utterly out of the meta (data dealer anyone ?)

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I already tried this. They never listen.

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I wonder what the best deck size would be if there was no minimum deck size.

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I think this is the money question. The answer clearly isn’t “none” since you can get that effect by not looking at your hand and not drawing. I think point where your returns from additional cards is less than the reduced value of included cards is below 45, but before that point you’ll want to add cards.

A wrench in the mix is the fact that at the 45 card base, each individual card has a relatively large effect on the rates of certain cards appearing, so it could be that neither 45 or 46 is really optimal but something between the two would be better. I recommend cutting sharpshooter and deus X in half and staple the halves together to make it work at 45.

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Here’s my take on the best runner deck with no min deck size. It’s big rig shaper which gets set up in 4 turns guaranteed and starts hammering R&D with medium. You need 30 credits to set up your rig and you have 18 in event economy and are certain to see your recurring economy within the first 4 draws since you only have 9 cards in the deck. Taking into account your 5 starting credits, you need 10 clicks to generate enough credits to afford your rig, 6 clicks to install everything and then you’re good to go.

If you’re worried about net/meat damage, or program trashing, include your choice of plascrete/feedback filters/clone chips.

Chaos Theory: Wünderkind

Event (3)
3x Lucky Find ••••• •

Hardware (1)
1x The Toolbox

Icebreaker (3)
1x Corroder ••
1x Garrote •••
1x Gordian Blade

Program (2)
1x Magnum Opus
1x Medium •••

14 influence spent (max 15)
9 cards (min 40)

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At the very very least, needs more HQ Interface.

Crypsis and kati Jones. /deck

Edit: sorry i’m supposed to put that in italics

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Not 45, for sure. Something around 10 cards is probably optimal.

Ok the difference here is that in magic ability to draw cards is not a factor (that is to say deck size as a resource is irrelevant) but that in netrunner deck size is a reasonably valuable resource (see levy AR lab access) so the minor inefficency loss is a much lower factor than the cost of playing levy AR lab access.

Remember that there is a case where deck size is important, when a player Would LIKE to draw a card but is unable to because they lack cards in their deck to draw. That is what the tower maxx deck avoids. Anything above 65 is to high and anytthing below 54 should just play levy

Really I think 62-65 card maxx is actuallly beter than 45+Levy Maxx, Levy maxx will have a death turn of 22 rather than 18 but levy Maxx still has issues as one might expect but those issues are less than the issues of playing same old thing and/or deja vu in your deck, along with the issue of playing a card that often reads 7 credits, As an addtional cost to play this card Spend Click, draw 3 cards. That massive inefficency bottleneck makes a lot of difference in a deck strategy.

Super aggro builds without levy work because they don’t play bad cards (levy/Same old thing/deja Vu) and that they have 3 extra influence to play with (giving them the 2nd Zu)

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Someone should run a small tournament where runner decks have no minimum deck size. I bet it would be interesting.

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PE would wreck house.

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Gonna troll everyone by winning such a tournament with 46 card kate :slight_smile:

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