The deck he was referring to was my NBN: Making News Door to Door prison deck.
Haha it was only partly a referrence to your deck pang4, which, frankly i think needs some counterplay and maybe some countercards. It is good, but it is reliant on a gimmick and vulnerable to a bunch of things. It was impressively creative though, and powerful for sure.
On a more serious note (at least until more evidence on D2D-decks is gathered) yes, tagstorm NBN glacier. Those ICE are extremely taxing, and the tag-trace-ICE in NBN now is really efficient on their own. I think link is meant to be the counter to that type of ICE, and that seems quite efficient as most are trace 3 or 4.
That needs some serious rethinking of decks though, adding 2-3 link in a non-rabbithole, non-Sunny is not something that has ever been worth it. Not really an issue however, i’ll have to explore options for the tournament…
Geist (and his 3 cars) disagrees! I wish there were more cards that gave +1 link and a moderately-useful ability.
That’s the place to start for sure. 2 Cars in 0-link runners. It is expensive link though, to get out and run quickly enough it feels like another cheaper source of link is needed. Reflection in Crim maybe? Or just play Andy i guess.
Security Nexus would like a word…
Specifically the Kate builds that ran Sec Nexus without Rabbit Hole.
Alright!
First tournament after playing with the list for a while, link below for people who are interested in decklists and results, and i hope my players take the time to fill out their lists.
I think it is difficult to say anything regarding balance from this single GNK, from my perspective there were no major issues however, and the meta was very diverse. Due to the new pack at least 2 Jemison. It will be interesting to see what people cut to build their decks however and the types of things that were brought.
But as i said, no direct balance data to be gained from this as it is a rather low-level event and many veterans had slacked off due to the meta problems… =)
My own omissions:
Grail Palana
Changed 2 global-food to 2 TFP to keep 2 caprice (now on MWL)
Event Leela
Dropped 2 Employee-strikes and a single Desperado to keep 3 Temujin.
Added two currents to make up for it, a single interdiction and Freedom through Equality.
Added second Polop.
Most importantly however: the event was fun! The games were interesting, at least the ones i played. I think it is time to start discussion-phase two as well, discussing some changes to the list and possibly additions/removals.
Next tournament will be in three weeks at a major Con that takes place here every easter.
2 Likes
Lots of similar ideas pop around, and from the list chosen for King of Servers we have a perfect starting point for the second discussion-phase. The good news are that the lists look very similar, perhaps for good reason. There are notable exceptions however, and i’ve listed them as ‘controversies’ in the top post.
I’ll start off discussion-phase 2 by commenting specifically on these:
1. Breaking News VS 24/7 News Cycle - Can BN be saved?
This is a very interesting idea, and for sure one of these has to go. Breaking news is also a really good powerful interaction in the game, it is just a bit too good in the faction with all the other good cards. However, having powerful stuff is fine, so bringing it down from ban-level to MWL-level together with banning 24/7 would make sense. I’m neutral on this at the moment.
2. Friends in High Places - abusable in foodcoats?
I have not seen the abuse of this card be a problem outside of horizontal decks, which this list already severely deal with. Can anyone post a decklsit and gameplan that makes this card a real problem?
3. Faust or not to Faust - Is it still a problem, really?
As i have previously said i’m not sure Faust is a problem after we got all the good ICE in the Flashpoint-cycle and after Damons latest MWL-changes. Which meta has been swept by this card lately? It is really good, sure, but so are many other cards. It is not nearly as prevalent nowadays it seems.
4. Accelerated diagnostics to MWL instead of ban? - Can combo-decks be saved?
Personally i think not, the archetypes it enables are still very uninteractive and lead to less stimulating games. You need tech-cards as default to make this matchup anything other than a weighted lottery. I think it is bad for the game as long as power-shutdown is allowed in conjunction.
5. Bring Desperado off the MWL. Runner economy boost?
I’ve said this before. I main Criminal, and Desperado is not nearly as necessary after Temujin. They fill similar roles, and the synergy is insane. Criminal does not need this card anymore, not after Temujin. Choosing either or, or both with a severe inf hit seems balanced to me.
6. Bring Prepaid off the MWL. Runner economy boost?
Neutral and i got nothing. I think it is there for a reason however, and bringing things off the MWL is a whole nother territory to putting things on. Will bringing this card off make the game significantly better? I really don’t think so but may be convinced otherwise.
2 Likes
I see two issues with Faust.
First, DumbleForks is a super strong deck and Faust fuels its ice vaporizing game plan.
Second, Faust does make Rush decks that rely on gear checks incredibly hard to play.
It may not be everywhere in the meta right now, but it does seem like a meta-defining and meta-limiting card. Maybe that does not make it worth a ban, but it seems at least as impactful as something like Sensie.
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I’ve defended Faust for a long time, but after playing under a Faust ban I think I finally agree that the meta is better without it. I think the power level of Faust is fine at lower-levels of play. Decks may not be built around card draw, or may lack the level of econ denial and/or ICE destruction that makes Dumblefork and Hate Bear as strong as they are. In addition, lower skill players may make the wrong runs or poorly timed runs that waste a lot of cards in a way that sets them back – but a competitive player is unlikely to make that mistake.
I think that play testing didn’t push Faust as far as the competitive meta (and let’s face it, @TheBigBoy) did to the full range of it’s power. Faust is a really cool card in the ways that it defies normal conventions of netrunner (need credits to break, trashing your own cards is bad), and is even cooler for having such a high skill ceiling to it’s use (watch the evolution of early Faust decks into the two-armed ICE feast, into Dumblefork and Hate Bear). I think Faust has given the game a lot, but as a card it’s power level is just too high to be contained by the current MWL restrictions.
Two voices more for, and i’m not exactly opposed. On the list he goes.
A shame, i really loved the theme and art. Maybe with 0 strength it would actually have been balanced.
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I really love the card too, but it only seems to become more powerful with each iteration of the decks it goes into. The high skill ceiling is part of what makes the card appealing to me, but at some point it began to warp the meta significantly.
Faust is an interesting concept,but with all those new cards it’s just be pushed to an absurd level of power.I’m totally okay with it being banned.
I love synergies,not a series of cards that if you draw them and you can deal with counters you win.
I support BN’s exist,just without 24/7.BN is a powerful card that forces runner to think more,to calculate the impact,to play bluff,to bait them into running and create a condition you can exploit.Just ban 24/7,with Astro limit 1 I’m totally fine with BN.
With or without non-asset spam deck,this card is still dumb and can be abused very hard in asset spam deck.At least MWL this card or ban it straight up.
If MWL got Temujin on then Desperado has to come off.
Prepaid should be out,no question.Its power level is too low for MWL right now and with Prepaid out we can actually see some people play Prepaid econ engine to provide at least a little bit more variety.
I wish for this to be true, but i’d like some more voices in this direction first. It is really the combination of this card and cards that punish a runner very hard for running unprepared like HHN that is a bit restrictive to many archetypes in my opinion.
I have not experienced this myself yet, perhaps this is why i’m so reluctant. But as per normal more voices in this direction and it is on somewhere, we have to do this by some kind of consensus for it to be successful i think.
Why? Do you think criminal econ will be uncompetitively bad otherwise? I do not, and have played exclusively Crim kicking butt all through 2016. Not even the Security-testing kind that synergizes with this strat.
Maybe so. Especially seeing the amount of recursion-hate we have now. Still reluctant to start taking things off however, as it is yet another complicated rule for players to keep track of. I don’t think this should be underestimated. Will you make an argument for not only why it should come off, but why the game will be significantly better off with it off?
Desperado off the MWL I agree. Criminal has other ok console options (doppleganger/gauntlet) and desperado is not necessary to play Criminal.
Faust - no need for MWL anymore. So many mutisub ice makes Faust incredibly costly to play. The advantage vs rush is acceptable because there must be some advantage/disadvantage in the game.
Prepaid off MWL: Yes. Runner decks can go event based which will add flavor and diversity and can be countered with Ark Lockdown, scorpios, and other things.
I think you are the first person to agree with me on Desperado. I like to think it is because people have not played much criminal in a long while, and are so used to the ‘normal’ crim. I have not heard any better argument than ‘crim needs it’ yet however, so yeah.
Faust, i’m inclined to agree, but not taking it off MWL and people seem very bothered by it. I have no issue placing it on the ban-list since it hardly does anything especially good for the game either. We’ll see, it seems there is more support for banning it, and i won’t come out in its defense. I think it is important to listen to peoples arguments and not making this about a few peoples opinions.
In the essence, ‘it would be nice and do no harm’ then? Is it worth adding even more complexity to the ‘format’ by starting to take things off that FFG has not?
I’m fine with Prepaid on,but I’m happier to see it off,it’s weak against current meta (event econ vs asset spam is worse than temujin),and if we can make asset spam less viable,Prepaid will be better and be a alternative to resource econ/siphon.
On the matter of BN,I feel like it’s never BN’s fault.Traffic Accident at 1 inf,24/7,EoI,and HHN being a 3-cost trace-4 give 4 tag card (off-model I think,at least lower the initial trace or a far greater cost,not simply initial trace = cost+1),these cards keep released and BN changes from an interesting and powerful agenda that encourages interactive to a tool purely for solitaire (Butchershop,24/7 combo,EoI combo,HHN+BN ïf you run or not you lose").In current meta which HHN is still a card I won’t argue BN to off MWL,just don’t ban it,leave NBN with its option and flavor.
Friends is likely to be MWL-able. The rest of all these seems pretty reasonable to me. And I kinda think that HHN is close to MWL-able too.
I like the approach of just trying to go bans and MWL, and not functional errata.
Alright, let’s try a couple of changes then. Let’s do the 24/7 - BN switch.
Also, we’ll try taking PPVP back out.
Not a fan of Breaking News coming off, if Aaron Marron is still banned and there’s no extra penalty for GFI. I’ve said it in the Breaking News thread, but I’ll link it here too:
Breaking News enables tag punishment too easily. The runner just has to miss checking one remote one time or the Corp has a window to NA it behind gear-check to cause a 2 AP swing (for the cost of just 2 advancement and a 0 cost operation).
It’s really just too easy. And once this list has time to settle competitively, I fear we’ll get hugely NBN-favored meta. MCA Informant is out now, so if you let Breaking News out of the bag, do the same with Aaron. At the very least add GFI to MWL, and maybe NBN will use real 3-pointers.
The options as I see them:
- Leave Breaking News on the banlist.
- Take Aaron Marron off. (Criminal needs good draw and now tagging decks have good option to deal with him.)
- Add GFI to MWL.
All good points. Personally I agree as I think BN is more powerful than just 1-tier MWL. What I want here is to provoke a bit of discussion in ‘phase 2’ and what you say confirms my reasons to ban BN in the first place.
Since contention in the community seems to exist I want to give people a chance to argue for bringing it back, in essence respond to your points above. If no-one bothers to come out in it’s defence with good points it is likely going back before ‘lock 2’. I like to work with hearing all sides, and sometimes the only way to get people to talk to eachother is to facilitate discussion.