NAPD Most Wanted List - *Update July 2016*

[Diego_Fernandes]

Now, if one identity is completly dead now, is poor Exile.

[Myriad]

But isn’t x3 clone chip, parasite, x2 lady and yog actually worth something now? 10 “influence” saved right there for pretty great cards!

[ErikTwice]

Basically what I’m saying is that the value of the Professor might have grown on a relative level but he’s still awful on an absolute one. His economy is still terrible and the importance of having Medium, Faerie and Yog on the same deck is lower than it has ever been.

[zarathustra]

My main concern is that when you decrease the influence available to demonstrably great engines, do you dissuade people from playing those engines, or do you just make their decks even more generic?

[crossbrainedfool]

@hhooo

Listing Lady and clone chip seems really insane too, not to mention how they’ve completely, totally gutted the most fun matchup in Netrunner, never to be seen again.

It was a fun matchup - but it was the only matchup too often.

I’m with you on PPVP and SanSan. NAPD too. They’re not that problematic, really - although SanSan+Sponsership is borderline.

@Diego_Fernandes

Yog.0 and parasite dont seem to me as powerful as DLR too.

DLR got a roundabout errata nerf (Pavilion is unique now), but DLR is a different sort of problem. Yog (especially outside of anarch) is warping, Parasite even more so. DLR is more a bad conceptual design - either it works or it doesn’t, and neither game is particularly fun.

@zarathustra

My main concern is that when you decrease the influence available to demonstrably great engines, do you dissuade people from playing those engines, or do you just make their decks even more generic?

In terms of econ engines, PPVP Kate is now an expensive proposition, on par with Harbinger+Wasteland+Aesops Haley. (That’s just core engine components - Voicepads and Lucky Finds or Apex cards respectively). So that means you can’t have all the pieces of a previous PPVP Kate deck. You can’t have Clot, and Parasite, and Mimic+Suckers, and a Legwork, and a pile of Clone Chips, and 2 Ladies. But you can choose from among those, and run it off of the same core engine.

Theoretically, this makes the decks less generic. If you have a ton of Astrobiotics (in some post NWL modification) in your meta, then you might go for clot+Clone Chips and a legwork. If it’s a more Jinteki Glacier space, with a lot of Kominiu such, then Parasite gains value. Against big Weyland destroyers mimic loses a lot of luster.

We’ll see if that’s how this turns out.

[GreedyGuts]

@mendax

I reject the premise - clone chip doesn’t need a nerf.

@popeye09

I’m really not sure that Clone Chip is a card that seems overly oppressive, I’m surprised that it’s on the list. With any of the cards, it’ll depend on why all of those cards are on the list really as to what changes need making.

I’m genuinely surprised here. It’s definitely the most overwhelming card on the runner’s half of the list.

It allows for instant-parasite and helps defang destroyers almost entirely. It makes Faust more dangerous by letting people move things from the hand to the heap to the table. It makes all kinds of damage worse and makes breaker redundancy less meaningful (though not pointless).

It lets Kate recur a wide variety of frustrating programs in particular, but broadly helps all runners deal with many of the Corp traps.

It’s a big part of what makes most every runner set-up so ridiculous. Just because we’ve grown used to it being everywhere doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem.

@gumOnShoe

Faust noise is relatively unaffected. Losing 2 clone chips basically means nothing to the deck when most of the corps that aren’t weyland are suffering, and deja still exists as a thing.

Maaaybe, but those two chips did a lot of work for me whenever I played. Sure, Deja Vu still exists, but it’s more expensive and slower and anything to slow the Noise mill down will have an impact.

@gumOnShoe

I’m afraid the main thing this does is make Noise more of a thing you’re certain to face, and that’s not going to reduce the amount of parasite in the meta. We’re probably going to see even more parasite in the meta and we’ll see shaper decks hone in on making clone chip parasite a thing.

Eh. Making him weaker still matters, and I think that it’s not nearly so hard to deal with him if you don’t ALSO have to worry about PPVP Kate. Hell, even if the parasites are only mildly reduced overall, it’s still enough to make “this dies to parasite” less of an all-encompassing, oppressive concern. Most of the cards that lose out most to parasite? Good against Faust. I have confidence that’ll work out.

[quote=“gumOnShoe, post:159, topic:6385”]
As weird as it is, making parasite harder to play just means people will be playing less tricks that aren’t parasite. Sort of like how people used to run less tricks for siphon.
[/quote]Yeah, but that means that there’s more variety in tricks for a bit, and the long-standing parasite problem is at least less of a factor. It’s not like Anarch doesn’t have plenty of ways to destroy ice already anyway.

[RTsa]

As an NBN/Good stuff Anarch player I’m loving the NAPD MWL. I think it is a very elegant way to nerf dominating deck archetypes without making them unplayable. Doing errata for a bunch of problem cards is a much worse way of solving these kinds of problems…it’d be a pain having to remember changes on multiple cards during gameplay. With the MWL the only thing that got more complex is deckbuilding…and you have all the time in the world to check that your deck is legal (and hopefully NRDB will do that for you soon automatically anyway).

Most (if not all) of this has probably been said already, but this thread blew up so quick I haven’t had time to read all of it yet.

As for the list’s includes…
Runner:

• Lady probably is on the list for the same reason Desperado is: it’s too good, invalidating the other options (who’s been running Battering Ram or Inti since Lady came out? Or splashing better fracters from Anarch?).
• Clone Chip is almost 3x auto include in all Anarch and Shaper decks…less instant Parasite is very welcome!
• Parasite being on the list mainly hurts Anarchs…and that’s okay. Paying 3 for it in Shaper isn’t a huge deal and Crims rarely splash for it. Maybe this and CC inf costs bring the other ice destruction tools a bit more into play.
• PPVP is a bit of a mystery…it’s mainly nerfing Kate I think, but having Lady and Clone chip on the list already do that quite a lot. Probably won’t see much play outside Kate anymore after this.
• Yog costing 1 inf more isn’t a huge deal, but I think it’s a step in the right direction. Would’ve loved to see Mimic on the list as well/besides Yog (but that may have been too much for Anarchs…).
• Desperado is (still?) an autoinclude in Crim. Some decks might go down to 2 copies if inf is very tight?

Corp:

• Architect inf cost nerfs HB EtF and NEH. So fine with that.
• Eli is a fine include even at 2 inf. But at 2 inf it’s got much more competition, sounds very good! Maybe it won’t be 3x in any deck that tries to tax the runner with ice.
• APP gets hit pretty hard. That’s probably a good thing. Still worth including 3x in most NBN decks, but alternative agenda compositions might rise from this at least for some decks (can’t do 3x Scorch + 3x TA and have the Astros too).
• Having SSCG in the list as well makes FastroBiotics sad. It’s probably still possible to run it but at least you can’t put in 3x Eli and 3x NAPD in there as well. I’m not sure SSCG was the problem card in that deck, but including it in the list does weaken the fastest corp and that does sound like a pretty good thing.
• NAPD’s probably on the list for the “so strong as to make other cards of that type ignored” -reason. And that’s probably a good call. Even if it was already nerfed slightly by Film Critic and Valencia being pretty played lately. Again, different agendas might see play, which is welcome.

Also, Professor could see play since he doesn’t care. Especially if/when the list grows! Also, no nerfs to Weyland is 100% good!

WNP and other DLR tools probably aren’t on the list because that wouldn’t actually nerf the DLR decks enough. You could cut a Siphon or two and pay the costs with those. The deck would be worse, but still very oppressive. The unique WNP change makes it a little less annoying to trash the stuff. Getting a bunch of credits in anticipation of the tags should be a viable tactic at least for some decks now.

Whew, looking forward to seeing at least a bit more variety in the coming tournament season!

[Dragar]

My initial reaction is that I don’t really mind any of this, though I don’t think it’s an elegant solution.

My biggest worry is that the best Criminal decks are now all 12 influence. They were struggling before; I think if that’s the case they’re all but dead.

[Xenasis]

@RTsa

Doing errata for a bunch of problem cards is a much worse way of solving these kinds of problems.

This is essentially functional errata, and the WNP errata is literally functional errata.

Either way, nerfing the current ‘best’ archetypes does not automatically equate to a more diverse tournament format. There will still be a ‘best deck’, it might just be a different one now.

[spags]

@bblum

spags if you want a funny forum title about this just say the word.

NAPD Enemy No. 1

[trafalco]

Keeping it fresh isn’t a bad thing. If it doesn’t work, they’ll adjust; for now, happy deck building everyone!

[RTsa]

I agree the WNP is literal errata. It’s listed under errata. I still agree it was the correct way to nerf DLR decks, MWL (implemented as +1 inf cost) would not have been able to handle that archetype, IMHO.

But anyway, calling it errata or not doesn’t change that the MWL only affects deck building and that is much better than affecting gameplay. Even if adjusting cards on a case-by-case basis resulted in better gameplay, I’d hate having to remember that Astro is a 4/2, Desperado costs 6c to install, Clone Chip requires a click to use but costs 0 to install, Sansan’s trash cost is only 3c, Eli’s str 3, Architect costs 5, Lady only comes with 3 counters, NAPD costs only 3 to steal and Yog costs 4 influence. Hell, even just adjusting the influence costs of cards differently (+3 for Yog, +1 for Mimic, +1 for Clone Chip, +2 for Eli or whatever) is much harder for the deckbuilder than what MWL does. As long as there’s no “errata data pack” or something similar, I’d really like to see gameplay-affecting errata to a minimum. So far there’s 4 cards with gameplay errata (and they kinda didn’t almost need it…at least E3 was pretty straightforward before, though I guess Q-Coherence actually changed behaviour with the errata).

Anyway, it’s WAY simpler to just list a bunch of cards and say they cost +1 inf to include in any deck. I think it’s also much better to have this extra deckbuilding cost instead of straight up banning a card completely or restricting it to limit 1 per deck and I think most people agree that this is a preferred way (might be that at some point +1 inf cost isn’t enough for some card and it needs to be banned completely, but I don’t think there’re any like that in the current cardpool).

edit: Also, I kinda disagree that nerfing current ‘best’ archetypes doesn’t equate to a more diverse format. I don’t believe there’s a “best deck” or even a “best archetype” in most metas. There’s always a set of possible deck archetypes and some subset will be competitive. You can rate their “absolute power level” (if such a thing existed ) on a scale from 0-100 for example (say having over 10 rating on an opposing deck usually wins, it’s not that simple because of counters etc…but whatever). Now if you nerf decks above rating 90 to below 90, you’ll have more decks in range 80-90 (all the old ones which didn’t get nerfed + some of the 90+ nerfed ones that didn’t get nerfed below 80), and that 80-90 range is the new top-tier. Meaning there’s more decks to choose from. If you believe there’s always one deck that’s the “best deck”, regardless of what other people play, then sure nerfing some decks just brings out a new “best deck”. But I don’t believe there’s such a thing. Dunno if that makes sense!

[tvaduva]

Sorry, I haven’t posted earlier; I’ve been rebuilding some decks (and watching college football). I’ve rebuilt my Hayley, Andy and Noise decks (Chaos String Theory didn’t need any change), as well as NEH and RP (no need to update Blue Sun). They seem alright. I’m excited to try them out against others’ updated decks.

[tzeentchling]

I honestly think these are good changes. It’s pretty clear that a lot of these cards on the MWL were put there because of the results from Worlds - FFG can look at the data as well as anyone else, and in the top 16 every deck had at least one and often two or three of these cards. That’s a good sign that deck diversity is being limited by overly-efficient cards.

And “overly-efficient” is the key word here. Making cards cost an extra influence forces players to really evaluate if they need a particular card in their deck, or if they don’t have to think about it because it’s the obvious choice. For instance, Shapers still have both Battering Ram and Snowball in-faction, and easy access to Corroder and Sherman if needed. They’re not as efficient as Lady, but they get the job done. No Clone Chip? Try Test Run or Scavenge.

It’s not the end of the world - it’s a rebalancing. I look forward to actually playing something like Rototurret again without fearing an instant Parasite, or having to deal with a runner just Clone Chipping back in whatever I trashed.

[Xenasis]

@RTsa

I agree the WNP is literal errata. It’s listed under errata. I still agree it was the correct way to nerf DLR decks, MWL (implemented as +1 inf cost) would not have been able to handle that archetype, IMHO.

Why did it even need nerfing? It was hard to play, hard to play against, and not too strong. Banning decks because they’re too good is one thing, but (practically) banning decks with functional errata that aren’t overpowered is something else.

@RTsa

Even if adjusting cards on a case-by-case basis resulted in better gameplay, I’d hate having to remember that Astro is a 4/2, Desperado costs 6c to install, Clone Chip requires a click to use but costs 0 to install,

Yes, these types of things are horrible, so why is WNP any different? There shouldn’t be any functional errata. Lukas’s clarification (or rules ‘bug fix’, like Q-Coherence Chip) errata are exactly what errata should be used for. Functional errata, as you agree, should be kept to a minimum, but I’d say it shouldn’t be used at all. If there’s loads, that’s an issue, but if there’s only a few (or one or two) that’s an issue too, because you’re used to thinking that there is no errata for cards and you don’t know that you need to check online how the card works. Functional errata on any one card is no more acceptable than on a bunch.

MWL is errata and affects gameplay in the same way that influence costs affect gameplay, you can read them in-game and get information from them. It’s no different than errata-ing the cards to say “including this card reduces your influence limit by one”. I do agree that this is better than restricting to one per deck, but, in essence, achieves the same result as banning a card completely and replacing it with a new card with errata’d text. It’s still confusing and changes the way the card functions in a way that you can only find out by reading online.

@RTsa

I don’t believe there’s a “best deck” or even a “best archetype” in most metas.

This is wrong. If you know, card for card, what every opponent at any given tournament is playing, you can construct an absolute best Corp and Runner deck for them given infinite time to test. Meta calls obviously exist, but there will always be the best few decks in a vague sense and there’s no way to ‘fix’ that. There will always be a (generally) worst Runner faction and Corp faction.

@RTsa

Now if you nerf decks above rating 90 to below 90, you’ll have more decks in range 80-90, which is the new top-tier.

No, because these decks become the new ~100 decks. This isn’t the old meta any more because you just affected the balance of every single card in the format. If you nerf RP, Noise gets worse and if you nerf Noise, RP gets better, and as such if you change some deck from 100 to 90, the rest of the numbers do not stay static.

This isn’t going to break the game and post-functional errata game will probably be fine in terms of playability, but functional errata and the MWL set a horrible precedent for how Damon handles cards that are good. There will always be cards that are better than most other cards. You can’t fix that, and creating a barrier to entry by trying to do so is not good for the game.

[RTsa]

Well put. Most (all?) of the nerfed stuff has different options (in faction!) to accomplish the same things (but more situational/expensive etc).

[bblum]

@wiley

it allows conversion of one resource for another (cards for credits) at a (imho) much too efficient way.

Bypassing gear checks is the bigger problem. Anarch is supposed to be weak at responding to aggressive remote play, to balance their slice of the color pie. But yes.

[popeye09]

@GreedyGuts

I’m genuinely surprised here. [Clone Chip is] definitely the most overwhelming card on the runner’s half of the list.

It allows for instant-parasite and helps defang destroyers almost entirely. It makes Faust more dangerous by letting people move things from the hand to the heap to the table. It makes all kinds of damage worse and makes breaker redundancy less meaningful (though not pointless).

I can see that it’s a powerful effect, but I’m not sure you can really call it undercosted or too efficient. Your issue seems to be with the form of the effect: installing programs on the fly, rather than the strength of the effect or its cost. Installing programs at paid ability speed is what Clone Chip does! I’m not sure the card can exist at all if you think that such an effect is fundamentally unwelcome in itself. Do you think that Clone Chip should be restricted to installing certain types of program? That’s the only way I can think of doing anything akin to changing the “strength” of the effect (as the effect is really a binary thing, either you can instantly install a program, or you can’t!).

[hasuprotoss]

@Xenasis

Yes, these types of things are horrible, so why is WNP any different?

Because it was deemed to strong by either the designers, the community at large, or both.

@Xenasis

This is wrong. If you know, card for card, what every opponent at any given tournament is playing, you can construct an absolute best Corp and Runner deck for them given infinite time to test.

So theoretically it exists, but realistically it won’t be achieved as a.) you won’t know every card in every deck and b.) you don’t have infinite time to test.

@Xenasis

You can’t fix that, and creating a barrier to entry by trying to do so is not good for the game.

I’m pretty darn certain the extensive card pool is a larger barrier to entry then the MWL and two functional errata that exist (or is it 3? I don’t even remember any more since most of the cards aren’t played anyway).

[dwindrim]

I do find myself putting in a lot of the Most Wanted cards fairly automatically. The other day I was tinkering with Gagarin and considering Oaktown Renovation or NAPD to close out my Agenda suite. Couldn’t bring myself to drop the self protection even if Oaktown is way more thematic and fun. So I sighed and made the smart choice because no drawbacks.

All over the place I see lists or articles begin like “I start with the shell of [Obvious Tier 1 Cards are Obvious]” before explaining a few choices on what else to include, and that’s the hard reality of deckbuilding.

I say bring on hard decisions. Mathematically superior options are always kind of sad and this game is at least as entertaining from decks which are a bit rickety as with smooth well-oiled machines. Optimistically it could bring the game back to “I have no effing idea what’s in that server, WHEEEE RUNNING” - right now it’s more “So it’s X, Y or Z, 90% chance I cover it with breakers A, B or C.”

EDIT: At the very least Parasite + Clone Chip made fun low-strength multi-sub ice essentially useless in a lot of decks, so I’ll be excited to see it gone.

SanSan is a sort of weird include - it’s expensive as hell and hard to keep on the board unless you’ve got a truly locked scoring server (in which case it’s not really as important a card, as you’ll already be scoring out, innit?)

Faust is good but wayyyy easier to deal with than endlessly recurring Lady, I think. Net damage / Swordsman / lots of subs (which, as above, now face less Parasite hate) will all do it. Not sure it needs nerfing to the same extent.

One thing I’m surprised not to see on is Jackson, TBH - I guess he’s just “Netrunner 1.1 (now with more balance)” as opposed to a strong auto-include. But if that’s true…rerelease as Neutral? He can have a properly dull name to reflect his de rigeur status - “Murray Lefkowitz, Chartered Accountant”. Apparently we have a fancy gentleman on-site who gets to design two cards (although from what I hear they can’t be fun or cool or they end up like poor old Architect ).