Nasir Meidan doubt

I think all the rules that were worked out with Kit have to apply to Nasir. Both Femme and Inside Job have “on encounter” effects, and that means all constant runner effects (as pointed out above), including both Kit and Nasir’s abilities, must trigger from that encounter. (Then, if still relevant, all constant corp abilities must trigger from “on encounter”.)

It’s not quite the same, because Kit’s ability only triggers on the first piece of ICE she encounters. So, if she bypasses that first encountered ICE, a) her ability won’t trigger again for that turn, and b) whether or not her ability actually triggers and resolves is irrelevant, because the ICE is bypassed anyway. For Kit, it’s really only (a) that is relevant, where for Nasir, it is (b), which has yet to be clarified, afaik.

So, the real question is: how do the “triggers” of Nasir and Inside Job/Femme interact with each other? Can the runner choose their order, or is the order fixed because for some reason they don’t function as normal triggered abilities?

I think it’s always the case that effects are resolved one at a time, and each one to completion. So in Kit’s case, bypassed ice is indeed turned into a code gate, resolving her ID ability in full. If you agree with that reasoning, it’s difficult to argue Nasir’s ability doesn’t trigger in full either.

Ice Carver is also resolved in full during a bypass, isn’t it? If I Inside Job an unadvanced Ice Wall with a Parasite on it, Ice Carver still triggers and kills the ice.

Unfortunately, you would be wrong. If that were true, a runner would always have to pay 3 additional credits when bypassing Tollbooth. Therefore, it is apparent that when ICE gets bypassed, any remaining “on encounter” triggered abilities are canceled.

Then the question remains: does Nasir’s trigger occur before the bypass (activating his ability), after the bypass (canceling his ability), or can the runner choose the order? I believe the runner can choose the order, for both Inside Job and Femme Fatale, but I can’t be certain because of wording differences on the cards involved.

[quote=“fluffdasheep, post:26, topic:1667”]
Unfortunately, you would be wrong. If that were true, a runner would always have to pay 3 additional credits when bypassing Tollbooth.[/quote]

I don’t think so. The Ice is encountered. Any constant effects (Kit’s ID, Ice Carver) are applied to completion. Then conditional effects apply (Inside Job, Femme). If a runner’s conditional effect is a bypass, all further conditional effects (Tollbooth, Data Raven) are ignored as the ice is no longer being encountered.

Presumably if there were a weird Corp conditional effect that let the Runner bypass a piece of ice, they could choose to have Tollbooth’s conditional apply first, and then bypass.

Edit: Actually, I think your conclusion is right, simply because the abilities read differently. Kit’s ability reads ‘The first ice you encounter…’ which is constant. Nasir’s reads ‘Whenever you encounter…’ which is conditional on encountering. So yes, the Runner can choose the order of his conditional and a bypass conditional.

This is where I’m thinking at now, too.

I’ve never thought much about the Conditional vs Constant. Is this an official “thing” in Netrunner? If so, then Nasir’s ability would be a Conditional ability, which would go into a stack with other Conditional abilities of the runner, which the runner can choose the order of. However, Constant abilities must occur before Conditional abilities.

Therefore, Inside Job’s Constant ability to bypass the first ICE you encounter would happen before Nasir’s Conditional ability can occur. Seems that Ice Carver’s Constant ability would do the same.

The constant effect distinction is in the FAQ when referring to Kit, so it’s a real thing. I don’t know if Inside Job is a constant effect or a conditional one. I think it’s probably constant based on the wording of the card, but it’s a bit ambiguous. This is where fluffdasheep and cspieker were sort of disagreeing above. Also note that all we know is that constant effects are always active and therefore are applied before conditional abilities, but we don’t know about order of multiple constant effects. I think they simply all happen at once, though that quickly seems like it will get confusing.

Femme, on the other hand, is definitely a conditional effect to bypass.

I think the wording on Inside Job is pretty clearly a Constant ability. It is, in fact, very similar to Kit’s ability’s wording.

Further it seems fair to assume that all Constant abilities will “stack up” like the Conditional abilities, but the fact that they are Constant means they have to occur. In other words, if you have Ice Carver and Inside Job interacting on the first piece of ice you could have Ice Carver trigger first, which would kill the ICE that is being Parasited, but Inside Job would also trigger afterwards because you have already encountered your first piece of ICE that turn (just like Kit).

Anyway, back to Nasir - I think it’s fair that Inside Job would trigger before Nasir could trigger on that first piece of ICE that Inside Job bypasses. Any other objections?

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Well, now that everything is said and done, I get the sensation that Nasir, as worded, is absurdly OP.

Is there any way to deal with him that doesn’t entail a deck made exactly to counter him? Something like a Weyland deck using oversight AI or similar effects? The other option I thought was to put somewhat expensive ICE as innermost, let him get it, then put cheap ice on the outside, but that just gives him a couple of runs of advantage, and when that happened he got into RD and HQ and got the necessary agendas to win.

What variant were you playing against? Workshops, recurring credits, something else?

If you have trouble with Nasir I think TWIY Astrobiotics and Supermodernism are pretty good decks against him.

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I have this question too! I’ve only seen the workshop variant, which I have wrecked. NBN and Jinteki seem quite robust against him, and I imagine killshot Weylands would get some nice timing windows after rezzing cheapo ICE.

Taxing ice, putting cheap ice behind more expensive ice, using lots of cheap ice, tags to blow up PW, traces in general prior to Toolbox coming out, etc. He’s a lot stronger than some of us were expecting, but there are a number of ways to handle him.

ASH is pretty horrible for him. Sea Source trashes his resources or just kills him. Traces in general are bad news when you can lose your credits at the whim of the corp.

Apparent ruling from Lukas. Bad publicity is part of the runners credit pool. I assume that implies it would get zeroed out when Nasir encounters.

See Nasir Rules! | Android: Netrunner

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The full response regarding Nasir and Bad Publicity from Lukas…

My questions:

1a) Bad publicity credits are “spent as if they are part of the Runner’s credit pool,” but are they actually considered part of the Runner’s credit pool?

1b) In other words, when Nasir encounters a piece of ice just rezzed, does he lose Bad Publicity credits for that run along with his credit pool?

His response:

1a) Bad publicity credits are considered to be part of the Runner’s credit pool, but unlike other credits are lost at the end of each run if still around.

1b) Yes, Nasir loses his bad publicity credits as well.

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That’s really frustrating… :frowning:

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True, but it’s consistent with how they’ve been treated with other game mechanics such as trashing accessed cards and using them for SMC installs mid-run.

I’m confused how Nasir losing Bad Pub credits has anything to do with trashing accessed cards and using SMC mid-run.

I guess it was a poor way of saying that although we previously didn’t have an official ruling, Bad Pub have always been treated as being part of the runner credit pool.